Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

Yes, it's a "sacred duty" even when our leader commits us to war for all the wrong reasons.

Piggybacking on Letty's question: Deb or others--

So, do you believe that patriotism must include a mindless, or uncritical, devotion?

sofia if i may offer -- of course not, the problem is that it is so often used that way. from the days of the Athenians/Spartans to the 21st century the "rally around the flag" is very often meant "do not question but do as you're told because "we" know whats best."

My country right or wrong is a slogan meant to keep people in line instead of allowing them to think. When the government asks us to go to war, and it is clearly wrong, citizens are duty bound to resist until the government rights itself.

I don't disagree with what you say, edgar. But, if I give you or dissenters the benefit of the doubt that your sentiments are honest and patriotic, why am I not given the same benefit of the doubt? People who agree with the decisions of an administration may see the same information as you, but thoughtfully arrive at a different conclusion.

I'm mainly trying to get the definitive definition of devotion, as it pertains to patriotism. Devotion, to me, is a compelling emotion, that doesn't allow for questioning. I am only devoted to my children.

I confess I do think that the word DOES imply an element of that - ie uncritical devotion. That is my qualm with it. Not necessarily mindless, though.

As I said in my opening post, I think it was an evolutionary advantage at one point - I think an element of it is almost unavoidable - and reasonably harmless - or even beneficial at times - as long as it is kept firmly in check by understanding of its origins, analysis of its irrational aspects and a strong dash of scepticism and humour.

In its unexamined state I think it is at best, stupid, and at worst, dangerous.

The humorous aspects can usually be fully appreciated when listening to its expression by people from other countries - ie the language of the Chinese around their recent successful manned orbits. I find it beneficial to apply the same humour to such expressions about my own country from my fellow Australians.

I agree. Anything unexamined is stupid.

Sofia re chauvinism
Sofia, you want a definition of some citizen's patriotism: How about chauvinism?



What we are seeing in the neo-coms who are leading our country in a dangerous and wrong direction is chauvinism. The terrorists who threaten the entire world are engaging in a similar chauvinism with regard to their religions, as many religions are wont to do.

Chauvinism is not my personal form of patriotism as I can see my country's faults and strive to correct them while still remaining patriotic and loyal to my country. An intelligent patriot is like a good parent who, when their child is heading toward serious trouble, lovingly corrects the child.

BBB

Sophia
You have every right to think for yourself. All I expect in return is the right to think for myself. Then the course of events will prove who errs. If I am 100% convinced I am right, I have to either follow or dissent, depending on the question. And I will do all I can to defeat (in a civilized manner) those who disagree with me.

Yes, someone shared the definitions to chauvinism, nationalism, patriotism and a few others a few pages back.

But, the definitions, in example yours above, included the word patriotism in the definition. The definition of patriotism includes the word devotion...

I see 'chauvinism' was derived from a guy exhibiting devotion...

Chauvinism is not my personal form of patriotism, either, though I am happy to point out America's successes, and have an overriding favorable view of my country, despite it's faults.

Us liberals have a favorable view of the country. It is the neo cons and many hard rock conservatives we are knocking, because we love our homes enough to want something better for it.

Sofia
Sofia, why did you not include the preceding word "fanatical" when describing patriotism cited in my definition post?

There is a huge difference between patriotism and fanatical patriotism.

BBB

My point was simply that 'patriotism' is used in many of these words' definitions--and 'devotion' figures in to 'patriotism'. I didn't find fault with your definition. I'm off on my own tangent. Just questioning the thread that runs through all these words.

fascinating pursuit, no?

Quite.
I must petition Merriam Webster et al to change their definition.
I'm sure they will respond forthwith.

just a thought here (how unusual) when the US beat the USSR hockey team in the Olympics there was tremendous national pride but when Canada refused to vote according to US interests over the invasion of Iraq and the Canadian flag was burned at a US/Canada hockey game the very ugly head of "patriotism" showed its worst colours.

Well, I guess it could be argued that the flag burning wasn't patriotic, but some guy's anger at Canada.

i guess it could but it ranks up there with "freedom fries" for stupidity. I guess the one guy turned out to ne many among them was persistent booing of the Canadian national anthem in New York, even as the US national anthem was cheered in Toronto. The booing in New York only got louder as the series went on, notwithstanding that the night before the series began on April 18th, four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan had been killed, & eight wounded, by a laser-guided bomb dropped by a US F-16 fighter plane.

Hockey= masses poised to do something stupid.