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Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 08:52 am
The cast of this discussion is to make conservatives appear as the only ones who would defend their country. In fact, liberals have fought in all of the big wars in which our nation was being truly threatened. The problem is, conservatives seem to think every war is of that nature. The liberal is intelligent enough to want a good reason for the fighting other than My country right or wrong every time a dumbass politition tells us to start the bombing.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:08 am
blatham wrote:

The irony is that we can be terribly proud of our lack of pride. I'm quite at home with this personally, being a deeply self-conflicted egoist.


Excellent post!! I note the above because I have often referenced it when arguing that all nations ahve a form of patriotism.

Abroad when I am confronted by the notion that America is jingoistic I note this, the "I am proud to be from a humble nation" thinking IS a form of patriotism.

BTW, you are funny again, what gives (checks the news to see if Bush is still president)?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:12 am
And here is a living, breathing example of fruitcakeville in nationalism...
Quote:
WASHINGTON -- A top Pentagon general apologized Friday to those offended by his statements casting the war on terrorism in religious terms.

In a statement, Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin said he never meant to offend Muslims.

"I am not anti-Islam or any other religion," Boykin said. "I support the free exercise of all religions. For those who have been offended by my statements, I offer a sincere apology."

Pentagon officials released Boykin's statement late Friday after spending hours deliberating how to calm the storm of criticism surrounding Boykin's comments. The general's statements came in speeches -- some made in uniform -- at evangelical Christian churches.

In several speeches, Boykin said the real enemy was not Osama bin Laden but Satan.

"I have frequently stated that I do not see this current conflict as a war between Islam and Christianity," Boykin said. "I have asked American Christian audiences to realize that even though they cannot be in Iraq or Afghanistan, they can be part of this war by praying for America and its leaders."

A decorated veteran of foreign campaigns, the three-star general said of a 1993 battle with a Muslim militia leader in Somalia: "I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol." After the man was captured, Boykin said he told the man, "You underestimated our God."
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/10/18/general/index.html
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:17 am
Perception wrote:

"Dyslexia offered the above as an opinion but without regard for the feelings of anyone reading it who might take offense at such as this:

Because patriotism is ALWAYS the desire to contain others outside it's purvue it is ALWAYS EVIL in it's intent. This is a damn insult and anyone here who doesn't take offense would willingly let anyone put chains on them.

That inclues you specifically BBB"


What? What are you accusing me of?

BBB Confused
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:19 am
craven

Mind-blowing debauchery and balanced meds.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:30 am
...oh lord it's so hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way...


LOL!
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:13 am
Humble Pie for dlowan
Humble Pie for dlowan :wink:

By: Leslie Vandivier
Texas Humble Pie

Texas Humble Pie is a delectable way to serve the Texas 1015 SuperSweet. Serves 6

1 or 2 9-inch pie crusts, unbaked
2 medium Texas sweet onions
1 3/4 cups Swiss cheese, grated
1/3 cup sweet red pepper, finely chopped
1/2 cup celery, finely chopped
1 cup whipping cream
2 eggs, well beaten
1 tsp. fresh grated black pepper
minced parsley
1 egg white, beaten
sauteéd onion rings for garnish

Line a 9-inch pie dish with an unbaked pie crust. (Reserve the second pie crust to make leaves, if desired.) Peel and cut onions in 1/4-inch slices and steam for five minutes; drain on paper towels. Sprinkle 1/2 cup cheese on bottom of pie crust. Place 1/2 of onion slices on top of cheese, and top with 1/2 of red pepper and celery. Add black pepper, remaining onions, cheese, red pepper and celery. In a separate bowl, mix whipping cream and eggs together, and pour over pie. Garnish with minced parsley and sauteéd onion rings. Bake at 350 degrees for 30-40 minutes. Serves six.

Note: if you wish to make the leaf pie crust, line pan with one pie crust, leaving the edge of the crust flat. Cut about 14 leaves from the second pie crust and mark the veins with the back of a knife. Brush the back of the leaves with egg white to stick them to the edge of the pie crust.

Issue: April, 1990, page 50

Here's some more Humble Pie recipes:

http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,37-0,humble,FF.html
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:17 am
...and she says that with a quite demure but total lack of humility.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:43 am
Merry Andrew
Merry Andrew, dlowan demure? Are you serious? Our wabbit demure? HA!
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 12:12 pm
Quite right Dlowan and I thank you for starting this thread and the healthy results. As near as I can tell everyone here is correct----in accordance with their individual beliefs. Nearly everyone has said that the word Patriot and Patriotism are very individualistic in their definition, adaptation, and interpretation. Below is a neutral definition which fits my perception of patriot.

pa·tri·ot
n.

One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.


[French patriote, from Old French, compatriot, from Late Latin patrita, from Greek patrits, from patrios, of one's fathers, from patr, patr-, father; see pter- in Indo-European roots.]

Note the words from which it was derived----all different languages. Some of you seem to think it uniquely American---as you can see it is not.

It is just a word but it has evolved into something beyond that-----it stirs emotion and polarizes the political ideology of nearly everyone who hears or sees it used.

Prior to the Vietnam war it was just a word that everyone took for granted when thinking about your country. During the Vietnam war it was linked to the gamut of human emotions: fanatacism, chauvinism, cowardice,bravery, stupidity, etc., and it has been so ever since.

Since America has become the only hyperpower and the rest of the world has reacted with suspician, fear, jealousy, loathing (greatly overplayed), compassion (rarely) and guarded friendship, the word patriotism has taken on new meaning. All of the above reactions are not so much in response to the country but are attached almost exclusively to the administration of President Bush and patriotism is perceived as a potential tool for this gov't. I you are inclined to lash out at the the current gov't you will tend to perceive patriotism as evil as many of you do. If you support the current gov't as I do you will tend to perceive Patriotism as benevolent and essential to the maintenance of a strong military and overall sense of purpose in our foreign and domestic policy.

The new policy of per-emptive strike has even further polarized the countries of the world. When I was a kid and even later when I found myself in a threatening situation and the bully raised his arm to strike, you didn't wait for the impact, you either ran or hit him first. To me it is just common sense. When Russia was the bully on the block it was a standoff militarily and had nuclear war resulted everyone would have been the loser. When it was a standoff we were forced to make deals with unsavory characters (despots and dictators) in order to further our foreign policy.
Now that we have more control of our destiny, we have not only the right but the obligation to correct our past deficiencies in foreign policy especially when dealing with tin-pot dictators and the first in line was Saddam. The alternative is back to posturing and hopeless diplomacy which has proven to be senseless as evidenced by 12 years of UN resolutions against Saddam. It is also evidenced by the failed unilateral agreement that Clinton signed with North Korea. When will we ever learn that thugs never play by the rules.

Gotta run----more later Laughing
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 03:22 pm
Blatham

Good to see you back in form----and as ever you epitomize the smug intellectualism that permeates this forum and puts all who espouse intellectual elitism in your own rarified atmospheric sanctuary. You are seemingly untouchable which is what infuriates those of us who inhabit the real world.

Don't worry though about anyone attacking Canada anytime soon. Your gov't seems intent on following Switzerland into the neutral zone to go along with the intellectual elitist stance. It will be a neat trick to be an inhabitant of the best of both possible worlds. You can live in the land of milk and honey and never gets your hands dirty. We will do our best though to pollute your bubble of purity----we will continue to send you our cowards.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:19 pm
Thugs never play by the rules - Bush described perfectly.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:11 pm
perc

Touchable I am, but you'd have to put on something frilly.

I'm going to post a link to a Slate piece written by an Israeli on the subject of the recent public disavowal of Israeli policy by a number of pilots. Israeli pilots are held in very high esteem, and this public disavowel has become a '**** hitting the fan' event. The writer addresses the government and public response. I suggest that this is a depressing example of the deeply undemocratic consequences that can arise from the combination of nationalism, militarism, and theology.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2089938/
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:36 pm
LOL all - my little "'umble" comment was both acknowledging the correctness of Blatham's and Craven's comments on the pride of national humility, and laughing at the logical bind this puts one in - of being unable to espouse either pride, or lack of pride, in one's country, without appearing proud! I like these little paradoxes - and I think this one reflects amusingly my belief that a degree of patriotism is both tropic and inevitable.

Perception - that is indeed a very neutral definition - all the others I have looked at have used words like "devotion", "zealously devoted" and their ilk.

You place the USA at the centre of the debate - which is doubtless a reaction to some of the comments here (and perhaps your patriotism? LOL) and perhaps to the USA's current place at the top of the pecking order.

Speaking personally, it is certainly in my thinking in debating this issue - especially now, and also because US patriotism DOES appear, at times, both amusing and threatening - but my qualms with some aspects of patriotism go back much further than that, and much farther back than the Vietnam war, and are much broader than an attack on the US brand.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 09:39 pm
Dlowan wrote:

Speaking personally, it is certainly in my thinking in debating this issue - especially now, and also because US patriotism DOES appear, at times, both amusing and threatening - but my qualms with some aspects of patriotism go back much further than that, and much farther back than the Vietnam war, and are much broader than an attack on the US brand.

Interesting comment about going back much farther than the Vietnam war. For me this is when it changed into something that polarized sentiments. The only other similar word would be the nationalism espoused by Hitler and his fascists. Is it possible you are actually thinking of nationalism which to me has a far greater capacity to absorb all the qualities of mankind that are far from noble. The following is a link that traces the history of German nationalism and the beginning of the reign of the "Master race" It's enlightening.
http://www.pganuszko.freeuk.com/dissertation/index.htm
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:38 pm
Oh - do you not think the English, for instance, thought themselves the "master race" long before the Germans did? And the Chinese, Japanese, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians did long before that?
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:43 pm
Oh---Excuse me
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 10:54 pm
dlowan
dlowan, never mind Perception's unnecessary compulsive rudeness. Its just his prefrontal cortex on the fritz again.

BBB
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 11:01 pm
LOL - I don't mind, it BBB! I have a damned mean tongue too, when I want to use it.

Perception - I agree that nationalism is a meaner beast - but as I have argued ad nauseum. I don't think patriotism is untinged with the same negatives.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2003 11:37 pm
Re: dlowan
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
dlowan, never mind Perception's unnecessary compulsive rudeness. Its just his prefrontal cortex on the fritz again.

BBB


You've got to love a chicken that quacks like a duck----I glad I introduced you to something besides the propensity to cut and paste provacative biased political rants. It would do you good to learn something about that brain you don't use much. I did however greatly enjoy the one you just posted about the Neo-Neo-Cons----I hope every "Librul" reads it.
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