Opera - an acquired taste? Or is it something one has an affinity for?

I have never heard that chord progressions played a part in differentiating opera from musicals....just as Joe said - the speaking parts. It would be interesting to see if that is a factor. An Opera is a musical and the recitatives are the bridge that allow for the dialogue. Also - I don't think opera singers dance - not the main ones anyway.

I don't see stating an opinion as snobbery. Belittling others - yeah...have a problem with it. But, I will be the first to say I am overly sensative at times.

Well, since most 'musicals' as we know them, including Operettas were composed after 1900, then there is naturally a division between the types of harmonic form used based on stylistic differences... but this is naming characteristic traits rather than essential features for categorization.
The diatonic tonality in classical and early romantic Opera may be similar to the tonality of most modern musicals, but it would use different forms and progressions and structures... and then there is a radical contrast between the tonalities used in modern Opera and within musicals.

Personally I find "non-modern" opera more hit-and-miss than twentieth (and twenty-first) century opera, but then most of my favorite music in general comes out of the twentieth century. Britten kicks ass. The Turn of the Screw is probably my favorite of his, but Billy Budd runs a pretty close second.

I'm the exact opposite. When Puccini laid down his pen for the last time, with Turandot nearly complete, it marked the end of opera as a viable art form. Most everything composed after that has just been pure, unadulterated dreck. One aria from Il Trovatore -- hell, one measure from Don Giovanni -- is worth all output of Philip Glass, Dominic Argento, John Adams, and all the rest of them combined.

And don't forget to include Benjamin Britten in that list, Joe. Britten wrote exactly one decent piece of music in his entire life -- the War Requiem. Everything else -- especially his operas -- is unadulturated dreck indeed.

Oh, yeah. I agree with you. When Puccini died, so did grand opera. This is not to necessarily to disparage works such as Porgy or Stravinsky's Rake's Progress. But they ain't 'opera.' Find another word.

I don’t think you can talk about the difference between opera and musicals without sounding snobby because that is pretty much exactly what the difference is: social status. One of them is considered “high” art and one of them is considered “low” art. If we absolutely must keep the two separate, then I would say the difference between an opera and a musical is the same as the difference between an opera and an operetta. This doesn’t really solve anything, of course, which is my point. I don’t think anyone can assert a difference between Rossini and Offenbach without also asserting a difference in social status, and I think the same difference obtains between Offenbach and Gilbert & Sullivan, or between Gilbert & Sullivan and Rodgers & Hammerstein.

I would respectfully disagree with you about the the “factual” technical differences between the two. Sometimes operas use different forms than musicals, to be sure, but neither genre is more or less dependent on structural forms. Verse-chorus or da capo aria... name your poison. There is nothing characteristic of musical theater that was not characteristic of opera at one point or another. One could describe musical theater (and especially the renewed interested in “megamusicals”) as commercially driven, emotionally one-dimensional spectacles in which music doesn’t always play a very important role, but every single one of those things could be said of opera right up until the nineteenth century at least. It wasn’t even until about Verdi and Wagner that composers were considered the most important components of an operatic production: traditionally it was the librettist who was the superstar, followed by the leading singers.

Between then and now we’ve had modernism, of course, thanks to which art and entertainment went their separate ways, and it is this more than anything that I think explains the difference between opera and musical theater. That’s why I think Ortega y Gasset had it right when he said art was the new aristocracy.




Different strokes, as they say. I’ll take The Cunning Little Vixen over La Traviata, Dialogues of the Carmelites over Parsifal, or St. François d’Assise over Le Prophète any day.

The list is indeed long, but rest assured I give Britten a prominent place therein, along with Michael Tippett, William Bolcom, Michael Nyman, etc. etc. etc.

Indeed. Chacun à son gout.




The Cunning Little Vixen is cute -- better seen than heard -- but not as good as Jenufa. Neither of them, however, can hold a candle to The Bartered Bride or Rusalka.

Jenufa is sublime. But if we're crowning a king of Slavic operas, my vote goes to Rimsky's Kitezh.

Actually, I was just limiting myself to Czech operas. The greatest Slavic opera would either be Prince Igor or Boris Godunov (in the Rimsky-Korsakov version).

Hmm. I had piano lessons and accompanied people in church, learned to love the sound of a good "big" voice. So I always admired opera - been going to them for nearly thirty years, except the opera company in our town just shut down because of the recession, coupled with a divide between the old people with money and what might attract younger people. Sweeney Todd was the final blow I guess (I LOVED it!)

But I never felt the PASSION for opera that I did for certain pop music - Beatles, Byrds, Metallica, Led Zeppelin et al - until just the last few years. Now suddenly thank God I can see beauty more clearly in all kinds of things. I did not understand that opera, with all that strict control and decorum, was driven by PASSION just as much as any sweating rock star (and the rock stars that really connect and last also have plenty of control and perfectionism too). Opera tickets are such a BARGAIN, if you think of how many artists have come together to make that production - the sets are sometimes so wonderful they are worth the price of admission, the symphony, the singers of course, the libretto - I am very big on the words to things and am really frustrated if there is no translation, and last but most important the genius who conceived the thing in the first place, the composer.

Just lately I fell HARD in love with The Golden Cockerel - Coq D'Or - you'll never guess why - an old piano lesson book had an easy version of the Hymn to the Sun, I had to go back and think about it - the opera is actually rooted in a story by Washington Irving, The Weathercock - you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows...it helps if you are a COCK though. It was the last opera of Rimsky- Korsakov and got him in a lot of trouble as it was seen as a mockery of the powers that be of that time - but that is not what it's about to me. Superficially it's something like King Lear - an old king wants to retire from stress but keep all his glory - that cannot be kings of the earth, take note. A magic guy shows up to give him relief, this golden cockerel that will warn of any enemy - but a tricky Beauty shows up also, and the Beauty and the Magic guy make a fool out of that poor king - whom I loved - there is a Beverly Sills version (I actually found the dvd online and bought it, very blurry but interesting to me), but it totally misses the point to me - all a big joke - ha ha. Life hurts too much to be all that funny.

There is a FABULOUS VERSION but it is not available in the U.S. except for 500 bucks on Amazon - a wonderful man I met online made me a VHS copy but I can't see the embedded subtitles - however I have read so much about it, and have several of the varied librettos, it doesn't matter that much. The more you learn about something, the more beautiful it gets. (Thanks to the person who mentioned that Bartok Bluebeard opera, got to find that one!)

Anyway, I am sure this has to be right up there with the greatest arias ever performed - the Beauty first makes her appearance - and who would not fall for her - both the king's sons are killed, he doesn't care, nothing matters but possessing her - but - that's not possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Cockerel - article about the opera

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwXt_06T9w

(I don't know how to put the picture here, wish I did.)

That was an enjoyable read shunamite. Loved the posts...I am huge on words and meaning as well. I could never understand the whole "I never pay attention to the words - just the music". Not that it's not legitimate - to me though, they just go hand in hand. A song is made enjoyable as much by the words as by the music.

here is how you inbed the vid - I think. I screw it up a lot.
[youtube] put html here [/youtube]

It appears we cannot edit posts - well just to test your instructions, I will try it here:



IT WORKS, THANK YOU!!!

http://www.powell-pressburger.org/Reviews/64_Bluebeard/Words.html

Link to the Bluebeard libretto. oh god it's chilling just to read the words - a phrase from Dylan pops into my head, "that can do what's never been done, that can win what's never been won" (It's All Right Ma, I'm Only Bleeding) and "a burden too heavy to be yours" (Foot of Pride). I'm sure Dylan and Bartok would understand each other. Looks like the whole opera is on youtube - when I'm strong enough to take it, I'll try. In the fairy tale, I don't think the girl had the idea she would bring light and life to Bluebeard - she was just happy to be marrying this rich guy.

Good story - love fairy tales...

I am sure that personalities play a role in what one loves and dislikes...though I can appreciate Bella Bartok...and actually love many of his compositions...I am not drawn to him as with others - especially his more dissonant pieces. I am sure that this reveals my simple nature - I like uncomplicated - but it is how I roll

I am going to take time to listen to Bluebeard as well though - with the libretto in hand. It's my new project! What I have heard so far is amazing...

I acquired my first taste of Opera from Bugs Bunny cartoons. The same applies to classical music. Now when I hear opera or classical music I think of Bugs Bunny.

Yeah, I know...

It's really easy for opera lovers to cite the complexity of the works to 'objectify'/verify their tastes over Musical Theatre lovers, but it's equally easy for Musical Theatre lovers to dismiss any value this holds as elitism.

I said before once, that I have never studied anything 'properly' before 1900, when I posted that last post I was thinking of the high level of organisation in Berg's Wozzeck... which is totally stupid because when I think of the ACTUAL reasons I like opera over musicals, it has very little to do with structure.
I'll blame that on having been force-fed neo-modernist composition for two years.
I can give in 1sts without knowing what they sound like. That says a lot.

There's this quote from Boulez, that I can't entirely remember, but he basically says that music's emotional aspect does not seem to effect him in the way that it does other people, and he is only concerned with structure.
It may be true, but I thought it more likely that he stated that as a defence to justify himself as a great composer- the fact that his music was highly organised.



I'm trying to think of the reasons that 20th century opera is my favourite, and it's basically because the plots are mainly more adventurous/dramatic, (I find most mozart plots a bit silly) I find the colours used more interesting (although I'm not that keen on serialism), and I find the melodic shapes more eloquent and interesting, and the experience more emotional.
Thats genuine, not be being a snob.

It's interesting what Mismi said about it suiting one's personality.
I do think one thing I dislike about musicals is the way they 'bob along' nicely, I suppose that explains why The Rocky Horror Picture Show and Sweeny Tod are my two favourite musicals. And I do actually want to see Jesus Christ Superstar.
Have no idea where My Fair Lady fits in though!
At the end of the day, you just like the things you like. It's only when you start to define yourself by your taste you get stuck into little pockets and have to fight your way out.

Don't forget that other cartoon exponent of grand opera, Woody Woodpecker:



Just a reminder, folks: there's nothing more dangerous than a psychotic woodpecker with a straight-edge razor.

Oh wow...Bugs and Woody are good. Love them.

I like Bugs over Woody. Bugs Bunny does nasty things out of gleeful revenge to those who deserve it whereas Woody simply annoys.