Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:09 am
@dyslexia,
Care to explain why you do not stand for the Anthem?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:17 am
@Yankee,
because I think it's silly, standing/reciting some inane Anthem does not make me a patritriot any more than flying a flag. I did my service in south-east indo china.
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:27 am
@dyslexia,
Thank you for your service.

I too sometimes wonder if those who do stand actually understand the sacrifices you made.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:46 am
@Yankee,
Yankee wrote:

Thank you for your service.

I too sometimes wonder if those who do stand actually understand the sacrifices you made.
you don't seen to understand yankee, there a are number of posters on a2k that served in vietnam, some are liberals some are conservatives and most suffered.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:49 am
They played hell gettin' me to wear a hat every day when i was in the army--when it came to silly things like standing up for songs, they didn't have the energy to pursue it . . .
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:57 am
@Yankee,
I do stand... for the same reason I do the wave or the 7th inning stretch.
0 Replies
 
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 08:20 am
@dyslexia,
What is it I do not understand?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 04:49 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Doesn't take long for his true feelings to break through.


The post you quoted are my true feelings.

I can't help it that you and others do not understand my subsequent posts and jump to a conclusion that comports with your prejudice.

I will try one more time to make myself clearer.

In general, I think loyalty oaths are pointless because anyone who actually seeks to harm a nation isn't going to refuse to sign or recite one.

There is, however, a situation where they can be of real utility

Some national security agencies require a signed oath as a condition of employment (this very subject was discussed some time ago in this forum).

Should an existing or prospective employee refuse to sign such an oath it will not reveal them to be disloyal to the country. It could however be an indication that the person will not abide by a policy of strict secrecy if his conscience tells him he should violate it. It's quite probable, in fact, that the person will consider it evidence of his loyalty to the country to reveal the particular secret.

There is an unfortunate assumption among many residing on the left end of the spectrum that people who reveal state secrets because their conscience tells them to are justified simply by the fact they have listened to their conscience.

Certainly it will be the case from time to time that someone who reveals a secret he is required to protect will be doing a service to his country, but it is also the case, and possibly the more likely case, that his leaking the secret will be doing a disservice to the country, irrespective of what his conscience tells him.

Since the agencies that have state secrets to protect do not accept as a given that their intentions are sinister or their policies absurd, it is an appropriate assumption, on their part, that the secrets they hold should remain secret.

Thus if they are concerned with hiring people who will abide by what they reasonably believe is a proper requirement to maintain secrets, then requiring the oath as a condition of employment makes sense. Not because it is a guarantee of compliance, but because the folks who will resist signing it as a matter of conscience are likely to be some of the very same people who can justify breaking it as a matter of conscience.

Not a perfect screening process by any means, but a sensible one.

These too are my true feelings.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 05:05 pm
@ebrown p,
To what argument are you referring?

I don't necessarily believe there is a link between the recitation of the pledge and respect for the country.

I think that the recitation can be a sign of respect, but I also think the recitation, if rote, can be a sign of nothing more than the ability to memorize.

I don't believe that refusing to recite the pledge is always a sign of disrespect although I'm sure that in some cases it is. Don't you agree?

I tend to think the refusal to recite the pledge is usually an act of drama played out by someone wanting to draw attention to himself or to feel righteous. I wouldn't classify this as disrespect though.

Again the whole issue is a tempest in a teapot.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:36 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
because I think it's silly, standing/reciting some inane Anthem does not make me a patritriot any more than flying a flag.


You're right. Singing, reciting or standing doesn't make anyone a patriot.

And it's no crime or sign of disloyalty to think that standing for the Anthem is silly.

Saying "God Bless You" when someone sneezes can certainly be considered silly, and let's face it so is standing when a woman enters the room, or shaking someone's hand for matter. Neckties are silly as is waiting until everyone is served before digging into your meal.The Japanese business card ritual is pretty silly, and isn't it silly for Indonesians to consider pointing with the forefinger rude?

Sometimes abiding by a custom you think is silly is a sign of respect for the people you are with and around.
dyslexia
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
because I think it's silly, standing/reciting some inane Anthem does not make me a patritriot any more than flying a flag.


You're right. Singing, reciting or standing doesn't make anyone a patriot.

And it's no crime or sign of disloyalty to think that standing for the Anthem is silly.

Saying "God Bless You" when someone sneezes can certainly be considered silly, and let's face it so is standing when a woman enters the room, or shaking someone's hand for matter. Neckties are silly as is waiting until everyone is served before digging into your meal.The Japanese business card ritual is pretty silly, and isn't it silly for Indonesians to consider pointing with the forefinger rude?

Sometimes abiding by a custom you think is silly is a sign of respect for the people you are with and around.
on the other hand finn, I didn't grow up in this culture. But that probably does mean much to you. While you're on roll Finn, is there anything else you need to dis me for? my hats maybe or my hair, or possibly my cowboy boots? '
Good Ole Dys. (aka Gabby Hays)
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:02 pm
@dyslexia,
I'm not sure how not growing up in "this" culture is relvant. I didn't grow up in Japan and yet I participate in their business card ritual even though it seems silly to me. I suspect you understand why people at a ballgame are standing up during the National Anthem even if you think its silly.

You shouldn't be required to stand during the playing of the anthem and as I've already acknowledged your not doing so is not necessarily an indication that you are not a patriot. Go ahead and stay seated if it means that much to you.

Sorry if you feel my post "dissed" you Dys. I was merely making a point in what I thought was a fairly benign manner.

Given some of the things you've written in this thread, forgive me if I'm not overly concerned with hurt feelings.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 02:33 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how not growing up in "this" culture is relvant.
I didn't grow up in Japan and yet I participate in their business card ritual even though it seems silly to me.

What is the silly ritual ?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 05:33 am
Participating in "rituals" such as hand-shaking, or standing when a woman enters the room (does anyone still do that?) has absolutely no relevance to requiring children to recite words which are meaningless to them, and alleged to make them complicit in a point of view they don't understand. If the subject were as innocuous as simply performing social rituals, you wouldn't have examples of idiotic ranting such a Yankee claiming that this has anything to do with patriotism. You wouldn't have to deal with the inference that showing respect for a few strips of rag can somehow enhance one's appreciation of one's nation and one's fellow citizens, and worse, that forcing children to say words which are a meaningless drone to them is the salutary equivalent thereof.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 12:03 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
...has absolutely no relevance to requiring children to recite words which are meaningless to them, and alleged to make them complicit in a point of view they don't understand.


The custom to which my comments were directed was standing during the National Anthem, not schoolchildrens' recitation of the Pledge

Quote:
standing when a woman enters the room (does anyone still do that?)


I still do.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 12:30 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Quote:

standing when a woman enters the room (does anyone still do that?)



I still do.


I not only stand, I walk over and give her a kiss.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 12:54 pm
@ebrown p,

Wise plan
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 01:48 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
http://www.venturejapan.com/japanese-business-etiquette.htm

Quote:
Never flick, throw, slide, lob or otherwise push your Japanese business card across the table - always present your Japanese business card holding it with both hands, Japanese-language side facing forward (having your company logo at the top of the Japanese-language side will help you orientate it correctly!), to the most senior member of the Japanese party first, bowing slightly as you do so and then on down the corporate ladder.
Accept a Japanese business card with respect, using both hands, saying 'Thank you' or 'Hajimemashite' as you do so.


I recall an event held in the US to which the senior management of our Japanese partners had travelled to mark the signing of an important agreement.

The Japanese executives lined up in a receiving line which we were to move down extending our greetings and our business cards. My colleague to the right of me expressed some surprise at the formality of the event.

"Your kidding, right? These people are Japanese" I asked him, amazed.

"No," he replied; still without a clue,"are we supposed to bow?"

"You do know they take exchanging business cards pretty seriously," I answered, "and yes you're supposed to bow slightly."

"Business cards? I don't have any of my business cards with me."

"Jesus Christ," I whispered as we were getting closer to the beginning of the line, "You need to duck out of here right now."

"You're nuts," he replied angrily, "They can understand I don't have any cards with me."

"OK, suit yourself" I said and soon found myself in front of the first of the ten Japanese executive. Usually in a meeting with the Japanese, they arrange it so you greet the most senior person first and then move down the line. In this case it was reversed. Whether this was a concession to US custom or simply foisted on them I don't know, but I expect, for good reason, the latter.

As I and my team were regularly doing business with the Japanese we had a set of cards printed with the information on the front duplicated in Japanese on the back. I had no idea how accurate the translation was but had used them before without incident and so assumed they, at least, didn't contain anything offensive.

I went through the ritual of handing the Japanese executive my card (Japanese version face up) with both hands, bowing slightly. I accepted his card with a thank you (in English) and made a show of studing it on both sides and nodding my head (this part isn't covered in the description I've linked, but I had read somewhere else that it was called for).

I then moved on to the next executive, but to my right I could hear my colleague mutter

"I have to apologize I haven't any of my cards with me."

The first executive issued a low throated grumble that would have done Toshiro Mifune proud.

My colleague mumbled something else I couldn't make out and then we were moving down the line again. I went through the ritual, but again heard my colleague almost groan miserably

"I'm terribly sorry, but you see I've left my cards at my desk and I just didn't expect that there would be a receiving line..."

Again the reply was a classic Mifune grunt.

I didn't want to be distracted so I tried to ignore what was going on to my right. It may not have actually happened, but my memory, at least, is that with each new position down the line there was a new Japanese executive issuing a disapproving groan.

Unfortunately, our company, although global in scope, didn't have a concerted effort to recognize the customs of our foreign partners, and doing so was left pretty much to those of us who most often interacted with people from other countries.

As a result, during the dinner one of the US executives , apprently trying to engage in table conversation, advised the Japanese CEO how much he loved Japanese culture, ninjas in particular, and how much his kids loved the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers.

None of this compared to the debacle that occurred the next day when a much smaller meeting was held in the boardroom. Fortunately the Japanese CEO was playing golf with our CEO, but three of the more senior Japanese executives attended. The meeting was to discuss aspects of implementing our joint-venture and of the three Japanese executives, only one (seated between the other two) did the talking ( in admirable english) for them.

By way of preface, our company was British owned and like many UK firms had "Royal" in it's title.

During the meeting one of our corporate lawyers sought to assure our Japanese partners that he was on top of certain crucial legal processes and much to my horror told them

"Don't wolly, Loyal will take velly good care of you."

Clearly the other two Japanese executive understood at least some english because they both turn to the third, firing off heated Japanese.

The spokesman looked accross the table at our lawyer and said

"Excuse me. I don't think I understood what you just said."

Incredibly the fool repeated what he said in exactly the same way that he said it the first time.

All hell broke loose with the Japanese standing up and shouting in their own language, and the Americans in the room offering all sorts of apologies in theirs. The General Counsel loudly suggested we take a break, and physically dragged his young associate out of the room.

This wasn't one my deals and so I wasn't directly in contact with any of the folks in the Japanese company, but I suspected that the outrage that persisted after the incident, and the immediate firing of the corporate attorney was to a large extent posturing, because all was well and forgotten when the contract was renegotiated and the japanese received some more favorable terms.

After that, the company hired a consultanting firm to provide senior management and certain select employees with cultural sensitivity training.



0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 02:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The custom to which my comments were directed was standing during the National Anthem, not schoolchildrens' recitation of the Pledge


Perhaps you will recall that the recitation of the pledge is the subject of this thread. Perhaps you will recall that standing for the national anthem has been equated to the recitation of the pledge.

Perhaps you won't understand the relevance.

Quote:
I still do.


I doubt that.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 04:36 pm
@Setanta,
Believe what you will.
 

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