All Europeans are vegetarian, right?

@Ceili,

I don´t know you, I can´t see your facial expression nor can I hear your voice.
Even when you are standing face to face with someone you know well, there is a chance that sarcasm can be misinterpreted. That chance is possibly slim, depending on how well you know the person, but it's still there. Tone of voice, facial expression and body language all contribute to the identification of sarcastic meaning, but even with all of that right in front of you, misunderstandings still happen.

When you remove the visual and aural cues, the chances of misreading sarcasm go up exponentially, IMO. Add in the fact that many of us here, are not
acquainted with each other, and there is even more potential for misunderstanding and the fallout that goes with it.

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@old europe,

Quote:

That's a very good point. However, if I understand it correctly, the proposed law would exempt seal products from the Arctic Inuit community.

It helps to be a little better informed ab0ut these matters if you're going to debate them. The organized seal hunt does not take place in the arctic region. The Inuit are not confined to the arctic region. The large-scale, organized hunt takes place primarily at the entrance to the Belle Isle Strait, which is to say, the estuary of the St. Laurent River.

But what is more silly is suggesting that there will be any market for the Inuit to exploit if all other sources of seal products are banned. If seal products are not used in fashion and industry because of the ban on large-scale sources, then the relative small production of the Inuit will have no buyers. Why would people who, for example, make winter coats, when no longer able to practice economies of scale by purchasing thousands of seal hides from the organized, large-scale hunt, go to the trouble to produce a hand-full of expensive garments from Inuit sources, to try to flog them in a market in which people who use seal products are vilified?

I suspect you didn't give that a great deal of thought.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

It helps to be a little better informed ab0ut these matters if you're going to debate them. The organized seal hunt does not take place in the arctic region. The Inuit are not confined to the arctic region. The large-scale, organized hunt takes place primarily at the entrance to the Belle Isle Strait, which is to say, the estuary of the St. Laurent River.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm not an expert on Inuit seal hunt. I'm just pointing out that the proposed regulation does contain language that permits import of certain seal products. Here's the info from the European Parliament:

Quote:

The placing on the market of seal products should not be allowed say MEPs. It is permitted only where the seal products result from hunts traditionally conducted by Inuit and other indigenous communities. Otherwise the import is permitted where it is of an occasional nature and consists exclusively of goods for the personal use of the travellers.
Furthermore it is allowed to place on the market products that result from by-products of hunting [and] conducted for the purpose of sustainable management of marine resources on a non-profit basis.

Conditions for placing on the market

The placing on the market of seal products shall be allowed only where the seal products result from hunts traditionally conducted by Inuit and other indigenous communities and which contribute to their subsistence. These conditions shall apply at the time or point of import for imported products.

Setanta wrote:

But what is more silly is suggesting that there will be any market for the Inuit to exploit if all other sources of seal products are banned. If seal products are not used in fashion and industry because of the ban on large-scale sources, then the relative small production of the Inuit will have no buyers. Why would people who, for example, make winter coats, when no longer able to practice economies of scale by purchasing thousands of seal hides from the organized, large-scale hunt, go to the trouble to produce a hand-full of expensive garments from Inuit sources, to try to flog them in a market in which people who use seal products are vilified?

Yeah. That's pretty much what I said in the part of my post that you didn't quote. I'm not sure that I agree with that assumption, though. There are many animal products that are effectively banned, with the result of making those products luxury items. In those cases, the very limited legal means of obtaining those items rather seem to guarantee a very high profit margin for businesses who are still allowed to sell those items.

Apart from that, the assumption seems to be (as I said in the post you replied to) that the entire market for seal products would collapse as a consequence of the EU ban on imports. Considering that the EU currently accounts for only one third of Canadian seal product exports, I'm not entirely sure why that assumption should be correct.

Also, I'm not entirely sure why Canada is threatening to complain to the World Trade Organization over the proposed European ban, when for example the United States have banned the import of all Canadian seal products since 1972. If the proposed regulation would actually violate WTO agreements, why complain only about the ban by the European Union and not all those countries that already ban imports of seal products?

The thing is that from where I'm sitting, the claim that the commercial seal hunt (to the tune of killing 300,000 seals per year) and the exports to the European Union are necessary in order to protect the traditional life style of the indigenous population doesn't sound quite right.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Why if Canada has not been skinning seals alive since 1970 can I then find articles like this in 2009. And how come I have seen pictures and articles about it almost every year.

It is a well known fact that the propaganda used by anti sealing organisations have been using the same photos and doctored "facts" since the 70's. All animals bleed, but most animals hunted or slaughtered in factories don't do it on a pristine white background. Blood red on snow white is pretty graphic, I'll give you that, but it doesn't make any difference. Either way, the animal is dead.

Quote:

March 18, 2009
Today, the Russian government made headlines when it announced a complete ban on the slaughter of seals less than one year of age, effectively ending one of the world’s major kills of harp seals.

Now, people around the world are asking why Canada"a progressive nation"has not taken action to end its own kill of some of the most defenseless animals on the planet. Every year hundreds of thousands of baby seals are killed in that country for their fur.

Seals are killed for a myriad of reasons, however, show me a baby calf, killed for veal, is it not a pretty defenseless animal. I'm assuming then, all hunting in Europe and Russia will be banned. Deer are pretty defenseless against a high powered rifle. In fact, seals are bonked on the head, stunning them, just as cows are stunned before slaughter, I fail to see the difference.

Quote:

Russia's announcements followed a statement by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that "[this] is such a bloody hunt, and it is clear that it should have been banned a long time ago." Russia's Minister of Natural Resources, Yuri Trutnyev, called sealing "one of the most inhumane types of hunting in the world."

In as little as a week's time, hunters will head to the ice floes of northern Canada to conduct the largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth. Canada's commercial seal hunt is every bit as cruel as Russia's.

Russia has a pretty poor record when it comes to it's own indigenous people. It doesn't surprise me how they've gutted their own peoples livelihood, they've done it time and time again. And if ever there was a country to talk cruelty... wasn't Stalin, voted the greatest Russian of all times, guilty of much worse crimes against his own people??

Quote:

Scientists, parliamentarians, and journalists who observe the slaughter report unacceptable levels of cruelty, including sealers dragging conscious seals across the ice floes with boat hooks, shooting seals and leaving them to suffer in agony, stockpiling dead and dying animals, and even skinning seals alive.

Again, ancient news, not reality! This has been debunked over and over and over.....

Quote:

Not surprisingly, the vast majority of Canadians want the seal hunt to be ended for good.

Completely false.

Quote:

With Russia leading the way, Canada should now take action to save the seals, and relegate the commercial seal hunt to the history books where it belongs. We've made considerable progress so far in shutting down the slaughter, but we need your help to win this fight. The 2009 slaughter starts in just days.
Copyright © 2009 The Humane Society of the United States. All rights reserved.

I would look at where and when they got their info and the motives behind such articles before quoting them.

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@old europe,

Do Europeans still wear fur?

Quote:

Apart from that, the assumption seems to be (as I said in the post you replied to) that the entire market for seal products would collapse as a consequence of the EU ban on imports. Considering that the EU currently accounts for only one third of Canadian seal product exports, I'm not entirely sure why that assumption should be correct.

Ok, imagine if you were in business and 1/3 of your income was cut, or worse, you new that if 1/3 of your customers left and bad mouthed your products, what future would you see? The writing is on the wall. Economics 101.

Quote:

Also, I'm not entirely sure why Canada is threatening to complain to the World Trade Organization over the proposed European ban, when for example the United States have banned the import of all Canadian seal products since 1972. If the proposed regulation would actually violate WTO agreements, why complain only about the ban by the European Union and not all those countries that already ban imports of seal products?

The fishing market on Canada's east coast is under stiff competition from European, Asian and American trawlers who fish in our waters. Fishermen also must compete with millions of seal as well. Culling the seal population must be done. If there is no market for seal products, why would anyone spend the time and money for no gain? The fishing industry would collapse too.
As for the American ban, this caused the once thriving market to collapse, this is when the suicides and all manner of other depressing things happened in Canada. I for one don't want a repeat, but desperate people do desperate things.

Quote:

The thing is that from where I'm sitting, the claim that the commercial seal hunt (to the tune of killing 300,000 seals per year) and the exports to the European Union are necessary in order to protect the traditional life style of the indigenous population doesn't sound quite right.

It's not just indigenous people affected here. Our waters have been over fished for years, causing the complete failure of the Cod fishery. Millions of seals eat millions of tons of fish. The seal industry is not just a indigenous industry. So now, thousands of non-natives incomes, livelihoods will be gutted as well. Tell me, can you decipher who killed your dinner. How exactly will the remaining buyers of Canadian products decipher who has killed what? In effect, your noble laws have gutted all involved.

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@saab,

Using HSUS as a reference is not going to help your argument.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Do Europeans still wear fur?
Quote:

Some do, mostly elderly ladies who got their furs since decades.

Ceili wrote:
The fishing market on Canada's east coast is under stiff competition from European, Asian and American trawlers who fish in our waters. Fishermen also must compete with millions of seal as well. Culling the seal population must be done. If there is no market for seal products, why would anyone spend the time and money for no gain? The fishing industry would collapse too.
... ... ...
Our waters have been over fished for years, causing the complete failure of the Cod fishery. Millions of seals eat millions of tons of fish. The seal industry is not just a indigenous industry.

Do the European, Asian and American trawlers really fish in Canadian waters? Here, our (German) coastguard watches even EU-ships who come too close to our waters.

The North Sea is overfished as well. But not by seals but by men (though certainly some, especially in the UK, will name the seals at first).

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Tell me, can you decipher who killed your dinner. How exactly will the remaining buyers of Canadian products decipher who has killed what? In effect, your noble laws have gutted all involved.

That's not just a problem with this law and seal products. (Btw: it's no national law until it's agreed by the EU Commission and and made national law by the various national parliaments.)
I mean, how do know that I bought fair traded coffee? Non child-labour carpets? Organic eggs? (Or meat/beef, to be on topic Wink

)

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Quote:

Do the European, Asian and American trawlers really fish in Canadian waters? Here, our (German) coastguard watches even EU-ships who come too close to our waters.

The North Sea is overfished as well. But not by seals but by men (though certainly some, especially in the UK, will name the seals at first).

Fish in Canadian waters don't see a border, Fishermen, trawl in international waters, just off our coast just like everywhere else, but they don't have to follow our strict laws. When Canada put a moratorium on fishing off the East coast, many other countries fished off our coasts in complete disregard to the dwindling stocks. In fact they began using even more invasive techniques, such as scraping the bottom of the ocean for what ever they could drag up. This practice is repulsive and against Canadian law.
And with all due respect Walter, I don't think it's just little old ladies in old coats. High priced clothing designers are still using fur. There must be a market somewhere...
Several Europeans MP's have stated they voted for these laws, not based on science but on public opinion. Opinions which have been tainted with out of date and completely false testimony.
The whole process is disingenuous at best.

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@ehBeth,

I found the article which was closest to what Scandinavian papers I was reading said.
There is a debate going on if it will help at all with the EU law. USA has had this law since 35 years and the killing or hunting is still going on.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

It's not just indigenous people affected here. Our waters have been over fished for years, causing the complete failure of the Cod fishery. Millions of seals eat millions of tons of fish. The seal industry is not just a indigenous industry. So now, thousands of non-natives incomes, livelihoods will be gutted as well.

I just checked the DFO website. Their "Myths and Realities" page says that the seal culling isn't done in order to preserve the cod stocks:

Fisheries and Oceans Canada wrote:

Myth #4: The Canadian government is allowing sealers to kill thousands of seals to help with the recovery of cod stocks.

Reality: The impact of seals on the recovery of cod stocks is complex. Seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod.

The commercial quota is established on sound conservation principles. The management objectives for the Canadian seal hunt are to provide economic advantage for sealers while maintaining a healthy population.

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That's not what I said, or the gist of the myth article. Seal hunting is not done JUST to help the fish industry, but it is a complex situation, with a myriad of differing reasons for the cull. One of many reasons.
Good god.

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@old europe,

Quote:

The thing is that from where I'm sitting, the claim that the commercial seal hunt (to the tune of killing 300,000 seals per year) and the exports to the European Union are necessary in order to protect the traditional life style of the indigenous population doesn't sound quite right.

I haven't said that, and i don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that "traditional life styles" should be preserved. It is reality, however, that the Inuit are up in arms over this, and use the justification that losing the revenue from seal products would work a great hardship on them--they have almost no other source for what is the equivalent of foreign exchange for a sovereign nation.

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I'd have to say i think the delicate sensibilities of Europeans are a case of crocodile tears--all one need to is create a graphic image in one's mind of gravage, of corn meal being crammed down the throat of a domestic goose in order to produce foie gras. There's a good deal of hypocrisy here, and i agree with Ceili in pointing to the production of any animal product as an argument against the EU taking any moral position on the seal hunt.

Before the Thule Eskimo culture overwhelmed the Dorset Eskimo culture, the Dorsets relied heavily upon the seal, and followed them along the coasts of Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland, even ignoring vast herds of tens of thousands of caribou (reindeer) which inhabited the interiors of Newfoundland and Labrador. Dorsets sites are quickly identified by archaeologists before they have even identified the cultural artifacts because they find middens of seal bones which, even compressed over centuries, are many feet thick. To speak of the 300,000 seals taken in the hunt as a bad thing, while not objecting to indigenous people taking them is quixotically absurd. If Inuit did not receive government welfare, and didn't get handouts from proselytizing charismatic Christian groups, and relied solely upon hunting, not only would their health suffer, but you can bet that certainly no fewer than 300,000 seals would buy the farm each year.

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@Ceili,

There are cameras on beaches, where seals are killed. There are none in slaugtherhouses, where cows, pigs and chicken are killed. It would be interesting to see what happened if slaughterhouse owners routinely invited TV cameras, and the scrutiny they bring, into their establishments. I'm sure industrialized nations, including those in Europe, would eat a lot less meat.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Serious question: are you saying that hunting seals and raising cattle are essentially the same thing in terms of how animals are being treated, and it's hypocritical to ban one thing but not the other?

ehBeth wrote:

Absolutely. No question. Go to a slaughterhouse, have a great big mouthful of Pâté de Foie Gras, or watch a spanish trawler scraping the bottom of the ocean. Hypocritical!

I would even argue that hunting wild animals, including seals, is ethically superior to raising them in factory farms. A hunted animal, at least, can live a reasonably decent life before we kill it.

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@Thomas,

I don't know that it would produce vegetarians. The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair simply lead to a flurry of cosmetic legislation, and now they have to tell you if they put pig lips in your hot dogs.

Quote:

There are cameras on beaches, where seals are killed. There are none in slaugtherhouses, where cows, pigs and chicken are killed.

It was once remarked that had there been television cameras at Shiloh, the Civil War would have ended in 1862. I'm not convinced, though.

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@Setanta,

On the other hand: if speed cameras wouldn't deliver such bad but expensive photos but nice videos instead ...

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Thomas, that is not my quote. I was quoting Old Europe.
I've never been hunting, never caught a fish except on film/digital. My father worked as a millwright in a meat processing plant for 30 years. I`ve been on a kill floor. I've seen animals in several countries herded into trucks and transported to holding/auction yards. I've seen the terror in these animals eyes as they've been led up to the kill floor and smelled the blood and fear of their brethren.
I was a vegetarian for years, but because I have severe food allergies I now eat meat. Very little mind you, but I do eat meat.
I also wear leather shoes and own a leather couch.
I now buy all my meat from my cousin. She is a milk farmer, they do not stuff their cows with antibiotics or keep them in pens, they let the animals roam free between milking. The take the cows to a small butcher, not a big plant and the animals are killed humanely. I've been there, I watched. It was painful, but I felt if I must ingest I could at least honour the animal in its sacrifice. I do this every two years.
I also buy a pig and chickens from the same cousin. Although I have never wrung the neck of a chicken, I can appreciate a quick kill.
I didn't grow up on the farm. I'm a city girl.
I doubt the average European urbanite could say the same thing.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Ceili wrote:
Serious question: are you saying that hunting seals and raising cattle are essentially the same thing in terms of how animals are being treated, and it's hypocritical to ban one thing but not the other?

Not me, Old Europe.

ehBeth wrote:
Absolutely. No question. Go to a slaughterhouse, have a great big mouthful of Pâté de Foie Gras, or watch a spanish trawler scraping the bottom of the ocean. Hypocritical!

This was mine, I stand by my statements.

I would even argue that hunting wild animals, including seals, is ethically superior to raising them in factory farms. A hunted animal, at least, can live a reasonably decent life before we kill it.

I agree.

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All Europeans are vegetarian, right?

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