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WHY CREATIONISM WILL NEVER WIN

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 07:11 pm
@spendius,
I am a really,really well evolved microbe.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 07:39 pm
There is a popular quote circulating the internet from a comment someone made on Amazon.com about a book: "Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."
0 Replies
 
BigTexN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 09:13 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
You still remain ignorant of the actual definition of the word theory in science.


"The actual definition of the word theory in science"?

Hmm, trying to define something your own way does not remove the true definition of the word.

You continue to deny the fact that, in order to use the word "theory", you must believe (i.e have faith) the conclusions that you are following must lead you to the truth that you seek...a concept well known in religions around the world.

Its a simple definition and concept that any grade schooler can grasp.

I do not believe that the definition is outside your grasp...you just refuse to accept the truth of it.

And that weakens the very core your debate and leaves you to stand naked before the crowd that laughs at your denial.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 09:39 pm
@BigTexN,
From a reading comprehension lesson for Fourth Grade students:
Quote:
Multiple Meaning Words

Multiple Meaning Words are words that have several meanings depending upon how they are used in a sentence.

We use CONTEXT CLUES to help us figure out which meaning is correct.

Let’s Practice:
Read the underlined word in each sentence.
Choose the sentence in which the word has the same meaning as in the original sentence.

I turned on the light so I could see better.
A. The feather was very light.
B. She wore light colors because it was going to be a hot day.
C. There is only one light in the living room.

(The correct answer is C.)



0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 05:35 am
I am amused that both Intrepid and Big Texan attempt to belittle a theory of evolution by applying a definition which implies or states that there is relatively little certainty involved in a theory. Not only have neither of them addressed the scientific definition of a theory, but i strongly suspect that neither of them is prepared to discuss the evidence for evolution in a detailed and intelligent manner, and so would rather quibble about definitions.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 05:40 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
I was not aware that there is a definition as it pertains to science and then another definition as it pertains to anything else. Where is the separation?


That's exactly your problem . . . you are not aware that there is a usage, a definition if you insist, of theory which is specific to science. The separation lies in what separates science from all forms of random speculation--one is about the degree of certainty based on evidence, the other is about wool-gathering and musing.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 05:46 am
@Setanta,
I think ya broke the code mister. It woulda been sort of cute had Bign brought it up once, then maybe stated that "I dont accept a theory as being anything more than conjecture, and I dont recognize these second and third definitions in the dictionary" . That woulda been cute and I wouldnt have thought that there was any issue of enforced ignorance. Now, obviously , Bign HAs heard from several people on the error of his language skills and hes still yelling "NO NO NO< IT AINT SO".

Thus, your observation that this diversion has enabled him to avoid any substantive discussion, is what hes probably shooting for.

Ill discuss another concept regarding auxilliary propositions (according to Duhem) and the fact that they must be independently supported. I want to quote some **** that IDjits state about the conept of "testability". However, theres math involved and I wanna get it stated waay more simply than I have down here.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 05:54 am
I've been reading a biography of HMS Beagle in the last week, and i was reminded that Darwin was originally interested in geology more than in any other aspect of "natural history," and that he first became well-known for the geological evidence and insights he provided to scholars in England during the second voyage of Beagle (it was a small brig, and was engaged on surveying missions to South America on its first and second voyages, so Fitzroy sent reports back to England regularly while the mission continued). Darwin had gone to Wales to study geology and rock formations in the summer before he was offered the opportunity to accompany Fitzroy and Beagle on the second surveying mission. I think you'd enjoy the book, because i know you are interested in things nautical as well as in science, so here shorty (today, tomorrow--who knows) i'll post the title and author.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 06:09 am
Doh ! ! !

I just realized how easy it is to look this **** up online.

HMS Beagle: The ship that Changed the Course of History, Keith S. Thomson, 1995, Norton & Co. (New York?)

The copy i have is a 2003 reprint, from Phoenix, an English publisher. The original (hardcover) work (1995) was entitled HMS Beagle: The Story of Darwin's Ship. Mr. Thomson is a graduate of Harvard, professor emeritus in natural history at Oxford, and President of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia.

(How pathetic is it that i was too damned lazy to get off my dead ass and go upstairs for the book itself?)
BigTexN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 07:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
That woulda been cute and I wouldnt have thought that there was any issue of enforced ignorance.


It's not unusual that people of your religion and faith in evolution would get defensive when faced with the reality that your whole belief system is based in faith.

It doesn't surprise me then that your collective, knee jerk, closed minded reactions would be "NO NO NO< IT AINT SO".

It is that kind of reaction that weakens the creationists argument when they try it and it has become the fatal flaw in your argument.

You have no direct, irrefutable proof of evolution...you merely "believe" that because you observe X then you can infer (i.e. have faith) that Y might have happened.

That is the very definition of "faith".

Fear not your own faith. Open your mind to it. Embrace it.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 08:16 am
@BigTexN,
Darwin based his theory on evidence, not faith:

Quote:
The evidence, as he presented it, mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology. Biogeography is the study of the geographical distribution of living creatures"that is, which species inhabit which parts of the planet and why. Paleontology investigates extinct life-forms, as revealed in the fossil record. Embryology examines the revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching; at a stretch, embryology also concerns the immature forms of animals that metamorphose, such as the larvae of insects. Morphology is the science of anatomical shape and design. Darwin devoted sizable sections of The Origin of Species to these categories.

Biogeography, for instance, offered a great pageant of peculiar facts and patterns. Anyone who considers the biogeographical data, Darwin wrote, must be struck by the mysterious clustering pattern among what he called "closely allied" species"that is, similar creatures sharing roughly the same body plan. Such closely allied species tend to be found on the same continent (several species of zebras in Africa) or within the same group of oceanic islands (dozens of species of honeycreepers in Hawaii, 13 species of Galápagos finch), despite their species-by-species preferences for different habitats, food sources, or conditions of climate. Adjacent areas of South America, Darwin noted, are occupied by two similar species of large, flightless birds (the rheas, Rhea americana and Pterocnemia pennata), not by ostriches as in Africa or emus as in Australia. South America also has agoutis and viscachas (small rodents) in terrestrial habitats, plus coypus and capybaras in the wetlands, not"as Darwin wrote"hares and rabbits in terrestrial habitats or beavers and muskrats in the wetlands. During his own youthful visit to the Galápagos, aboard the survey ship Beagle, Darwin himself had discovered three very similar forms of mockingbird, each on a different island.

Why should "closely allied" species inhabit neighboring patches of habitat? And why should similar habitat on different continents be occupied by species that aren't so closely allied? "We see in these facts some deep organic bond, prevailing throughout space and time," Darwin wrote. "This bond, on my theory, is simply inheritance." Similar species occur nearby in space because they have descended from common ancestors.

Paleontology reveals a similar clustering pattern in the dimension of time. The vertical column of geologic strata, laid down by sedimentary processes over the eons, lightly peppered with fossils, represents a tangible record showing which species lived when. Less ancient layers of rock lie atop more ancient ones (except where geologic forces have tipped or shuffled them), and likewise with the animal and plant fossils that the strata contain. What Darwin noticed about this record is that closely allied species tend to be found adjacent to one another in successive strata. One species endures for millions of years and then makes its last appearance in, say, the middle Eocene epoch; just above, a similar but not identical species replaces it. In North America, for example, a vaguely horselike creature known as Hyracotherium was succeeded by Orohippus, then Epihippus, then Mesohippus, which in turn were succeeded by a variety of horsey American critters. Some of them even galloped across the Bering land bridge into Asia, then onward to Europe and Africa. By five million years ago they had nearly all disappeared, leaving behind Dinohippus, which was succeeded by Equus, the modern genus of horse. Not all these fossil links had been unearthed in Darwin's day, but he captured the essence of the matter anyway. Again, were such sequences just coincidental? No, Darwin argued. Closely allied species succeed one another in time, as well as living nearby in space, because they're related through evolutionary descent.

Embryology too involved patterns that couldn't be explained by coincidence. Why does the embryo of a mammal pass through stages resembling stages of the embryo of a reptile? Why is one of the larval forms of a barnacle, before metamorphosis, so similar to the larval form of a shrimp? Why do the larvae of moths, flies, and beetles resemble one another more than any of them resemble their respective adults? Because, Darwin wrote, "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state" and that state "reveals the structure of its progenitor."

Morphology, his fourth category of evidence, was the "very soul" of natural history, according to Darwin. Even today it's on display in the layout and organization of any zoo. Here are the monkeys, there are the big cats, and in that building are the alligators and crocodiles. Birds in the aviary, fish in the aquarium. Living creatures can be easily sorted into a hierarchy of categories"not just species but genera, families, orders, whole kingdoms"based on which anatomical characters they share and which they don't.

All vertebrate animals have backbones. Among vertebrates, birds have feathers, whereas reptiles have scales. Mammals have fur and mammary glands, not feathers or scales. Among mammals, some have pouches in which they nurse their tiny young. Among these species, the marsupials, some have huge rear legs and strong tails by which they go hopping across miles of arid outback; we call them kangaroos. Bring in modern microscopic and molecular evidence, and you can trace the similarities still further back. All plants and fungi, as well as animals, have nuclei within their cells. All living organisms contain DNA and RNA (except some viruses with RNA only), two related forms of information-coding molecules.

Such a pattern of tiered resemblances"groups of similar species nested within broader groupings, and all descending from a single source"isn't naturally present among other collections of items. You won't find anything equivalent if you try to categorize rocks, or musical instruments, or jewelry. Why not? Because rock types and styles of jewelry don't reflect unbroken descent from common ancestors. Biological diversity does. The number of shared characteristics between any one species and another indicates how recently those two species have diverged from a shared lineage.
-David Quammen, National Geographic Magazine, November 2004
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 08:18 am
@BigTexN,
BigTexN wrote:
You have no direct, irrefutable proof of evolution...you merely "believe" that because you observe X then you can infer (i.e. have faith) that Y might have happened.

That is the very definition of "faith".

Um... no. That is the definition of "reason". "Faith" requires no evidence at all. That's why it's called "faith".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

Quote:
faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.


If you're trying to say that ultimately one must have faith in the evidence of one's senses, then you might have a point. But that would be a Solipsist argument, and a basis for rejecting everything, including God.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 08:24 am
Dammit. Another troll armed with pedantry. Why do I allow myself to get sucked in?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 08:29 am
The "faith" argument has been a staple 0f these fundamentalist thinkers for longer than I have been aware. It is one of the first ploys I ever faced when attempting discussions with the "religious" ones. If you try to lift the curtain and get to solid facts, as opposed to slippery quips and platitudes, they either become angry or else terminate the proceeding. But the facts are never allowed into a discussion.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:17 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
If you're trying to say that ultimately one must have faith in the evidence of one's senses, then you might have a point. But that would be a Solipsist argument, and a basis for rejecting everything, including God.

That was well stated DD.

The argument that you must have faith in the evidence of one's own senses, is the final, and perhaps ultimate, refuge for arguments against science. But it's a meaningless argument, for as you say, it undermines everything.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:29 am
@rosborne979,
Ahm just sitting back with my tuna melt reading you guys taking Bign apart . I dont think that these really great summations is gonna matter one jot to "His Obtuseness".

Bign demonstrates why Creationism will never win, its so damn lacking in any connection with reality. No predictions possible, and meanwhile, the only argument he tries vainly to cobble is one of semantics.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:49 am
@DrewDad,
Excellent!.

What the Creationists and IDjits miss is that there is a role for observation in Poppers falsifiability concept. For a proposition to be falsifiable , it cannot merely be inconsistent with the state of a systems being, it must also be inconsistent with observation. Faith requires no observation, while science is based upon observation.

Im sure this will be playing chess with a Texas pigeon but it hadda be said in light of DD's comment
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:54 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Dammit. Another troll armed with pedantry. Why do I allow myself to get sucked in?
because you're a silly goose. everyone knows.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 10:33 am
@Setanta,
Set, I have a copy of the Thompson book, It is waay superior to the earlier Moorehead book on Darwin and the Beagle (which had been reissued 3 times since its early pub, Moorehead had changed some positions with each ed).
0 Replies
 
midnightcowboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Apr, 2009 06:29 am
@farmerman,
One fact that may tend to make us think creationism may have some validity is the speed with which the "Creator" created everything. In doing so he clearly rushed a few minds and left them closed from the beginning, unable to evolve.
 

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