Water Fast

fwiw, I believe maporsche is preparing for the 2nd coming (of the Great Depression). I recall noticing a few "survival-type" threads around the start of the year viz
http://able2know.org/topic/128556-1#post-3551178

Lots of posturing, little information. So here's some information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_response
http://www.netwellness.org/question.cfm/37350.htm
http://www.slate.com/id/2102228/
http://www.webmd.com/diet/fasting

I think you should consult a doctor before doing this, but you already know that so here's my poorly-educated opinion in case you have no inclination to do so:

I strongly recommend that you at least change your plan from a water fast to a juice fast and I also strongly recommend that you listen to your body, instead of setting an arbitrary goal.

The more immediate (within days) danger to you is largely mitigated by maintaining some sugar input to avoid blood sugar levels that can be dangerous to you for reasons other than starvation mode dangers (such as diabetes).

I've done fasting (not by choice but for religious reasons) and I know that a liquid or juice fast gets challenging pretty quick. I've also not had food at all for short periods (not by choice but for lack of food reasons) and the difference in difficulty I experienced was not too different from a juice fast in terms of the challenge.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think you can challenge yourself more safely by maintaining a daily sugar and vitamin intake. And personally I think you shouldn't consider going longer than 14-20 days, even if you are healthy. Nobody can predict exactly how long you can last, but most people would tend to be in the 3-4 week range (before things get dangerous) and it's entirely possible for you to die around a 30-day mark.

Of course, it's entirely possible you won't but if you think of this from a cost/benefit perspective I don't think pushing it that far makes a lot of sense personally.

P.S. I think the idea is daft as you expressed it. Why not challenge yourself with moderation instead of extremes? It sounds like that might actually be a greater challenge to you.

RG's advice regarding a juice diet is very well given. If your body thinks it's starving (and low blood sugar can convince your body of this), it will take muscle and organ tissue rather than fat tissue. That would make any weight loss you "enjoyed" quixotic at best, since you wouldn't be losing the tissue which makes people feel they are overweight. In addition to keeping your blood sugar up with juice, i would advise taking a daily multi-vitamin with minerals. That way, you body would just feel hungry, as opposed to starving.

ELECTROLYTES !

I thought this was a good article...
http://www.dietdetective.com/content/view/105/159/

Everything I'm reading says that exercising while fasting isn't a good idea. And that muscle gets used to make energy, not fat.

I'm no expert, I've been reading what I've found on Google. I have no link or definite facts. This is my disclaimer.

As to your question of when does a fast become starvation, I'm not sure anyone can answer that for you. It seems to depend on the person and what kind of fast they are doing.
From my googling, fasts look like they have become a popular thing, with lots of websites telling you how to do it. But reading a wide range of opinions is where you can start sorting the facts.

A long fast, and that seemed to be anything over a couple of days, with only water looks as though it should be under a doctor's supervision.

Fasting should not be used as a weight loss. It's more about detoxing. And that other stuff I had in my last post.

There really doesn't seem to be much point in doing it for 30 days. I can't see where you might be getting any more benefits. I only see your risks increasing. But you go do your reading and decide.

Eggs-actly . . .

My grandma lived to be 102 an she never fasted a day in her life. And she smoked like a fiend.

... but she could have lived to 105 if only she had fasted for 30 days on nothing but water !
let that be a lesson for all of us !
hbg

Very bad idea, Maporche, you may not have perceived ill effects with your prior fasts, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Just a low potassium can send your heart into V-fib and then V-tach. I collected data on an ICU research study for 4 yrs on consecutive admissions to the ICU and did analysis of various acute data on chemistry levels and Glasgow coma scale. You do not want to do this as a routine way to lose weight. Potassium levels can be off just a minute amount and you would be in trouble. My 2 cents.

The risks involved in liquid diets under medical supervision are miniscule compared to the massive risks involved in obesity. Read this instead of speculating - "substantial weight loss" actually removes much of the risk. What usually kills fatties is congestive heart failure (CHF), and the risk is highest the longer they've been fat. However MaPorsche said he plans to have a medical exam soon, so these warnings of "coma" (gimme a break, after a couple of days' fast, a coma?!) are overkill at best. Besides, MP isn't planning to stay on the diet forever, just for a few days!


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9315579?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

A few? From the OP -

"Tomorrow marks day 1 of my 30 day water fast."

30 days is a hell of a lot more than 'a few.'

And Maporsche seems athletic and fit, hardly 'obese.'

Cycloptichorn

A few is what he's done so far. That's what the "few" refers to - duh, Cycl!

Well, it's fair to say that everything goes well in cases like this - right up until it doesn't. One or two days without food is no big deal but 10, 20 or more? He could be seriously injured by this!

Cycloptichorn

This is by far the funniest entry so far here.
On page 1 of this thread. Followed by torrents of words, none with backup of any kind. Sounds like awfully reliable advice.

High Seas, Marporsche did not say he's going on a liquid diet. He's going on a water fast. No nutrition. I'm not even going to address Marporsches personal quest/situation anymore, since we've gone beyond that.

Morbid obesity (which is really getting off the subject since Marporsche isn't obese) is a serious issue. But not one to be attacked with a water fast.
In addition, Vietnam nurse did not say people go into a coma after a fast of a couple of days, however, I'm sure they could. A person would undiagnosed diabetes for instance, would be in big trouble.

What vietnam nurse said was...

"I collected data on an ICU research study for 4 yrs on consecutive admissions to the ICU and did analysis of various acute data on chemistry levels and Glasgow coma scale. "

The Glasgow coma scale is like any other scale, going from complete coma to complete consciousness and alertness. Somewhere in the middle are various levels of confusion and lack of response.

I can't speak for VN, but I read what she said meaning that she has analyzed the chemistry levels on 4 years worth of ICU admissions. I'm guessing that in general the more confused they were, the more their body chemistry was messed up.

I think VN said a very important thing when she said just because one says they came to no harm when they've done a fast before doesn't mean that's true.

The chemistry of a person is a lot more sensitive than many people seem to realize. You may not think you're upsetting the balance of your system, but you are.

The message that everyone needs to hear is that fasting in general is not something to be undertaken lightly. IMO a visit to the doctor at some arbitrary point after you start a fast is foolish. It's something you see the doctor before, and on a very regular basis during.

Funny, everyone seems to know nowadays that yo-yo dieting is bad for you. What do you think a fast of any length is doing? It's telling your body that it is in a famine mode, and to start to shut down any non-essential activities, like growing muscle, and up the scale to some essential activities like kidney, liver, up to the point of keeping your heart beating and brain functioning.

If you don't eat for a while, and your brain becomes confused, what do you think is happening to the other organs of your body?

In fact, I'm just going to state my own unscientific opinion that fasting does not do all this wonderful stuff like detoxing your body and clearing you out, but instead, after a point causes more accumulation of toxins, along with the inability to handle the crap.

Next time someone says to you "I'm doing such and such to detox my body" ask them "what toxins?"

They won't be able to name them. Believe me, I've asked, and all you get is "um, uh...well, all the toxins" or something like that.

Your body does a wonderful job of flushing out toxins (which I can't name either) when you give it good nutrition, water, fresh air and exercise.

wow, how boring is that?

fasting certainly can have benefits , however , other than a moderate dieter would certainly benefit from carrying out any diet under medical supervision - meaning : initial check-up followed by some check-ups at regular intervals .

many dieters seems to think that once they have carried out their diet , they can go back to their old way of eating (too much) . that easily results in the "yo-yo effect" of gaining weight again ... another diet ...
that is certainly NOT good for the humen body and good health .
that is not how a diet should be carried out .

we have a number of friends who are on that kind of a "diet" and they just keep gaining weight and are unwillingly to admit that a "yo-yo diet" is useless . their usual response : "i put myself on a diet and lost x pounds but now i've gained XX pounds - i can't understand that ! " .

reducing the food intake and increasing the liquid intake (and it does NOT all have to be water !) should result in a weight-reduction over some months - but again , i wouldn't ever do it without discussing it with my physician and ensure that i'd get a complete physical first .

there are plenty of regular hospitals operating weight-reduction clinics at moderate cost - no need to buy frozen food advertised by scammers such as certain "celebreties" passing as "experts " .

plenty of reliable information from reputable hospitals available on the internet .
in canada professional dieticians can be found through the professional dieticians' association or through a referral from a physician (no quacks need apply) .

http://www.dietitians.ca/

High Seas, he doesn't say "LIQUID DIET", he said H2O diet for 20-30 days. Even 4-5 days is not healthy.

Yes, "give me a break" sounds a lot more reliable than talking about Vfib, diabetes, loss of muscle mass, electrolyte imbalance, etc.

how foolish of me.

The next time someone mentions they enjoy driving down a crowed interstate @ 100mph during an ice storm, I'll make sure I have plenty of internet backup before saying that's not a safe thing to do.

You're such a kill-joy! Have you ever even tried driving down a crowded intestate at 100mph during an ice storm?