32
   

Does anyone else eschew credit?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:41 am
@chai2,
Quote:

No, I'm not being defensive. No need to explain that to you. That's your feeling, and it's false.


Hmm. I don't think it is false at all. But, whatever. You seem to have gotten the idea at some point that others are judging you, but I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Cycloptichorn
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I tend to agree with georgeob1. Credit cards are a good thing, unless one
has a spending habit above their income and limits. I could not do without
credit cards, as I mostly do online shopping - airline tickets, gifts, books etc. etc.
I pay for groceries with an ATM, and sometimes I pay cash for small things,
but only sometimes.

Owning a credit card comes with financial responsibilities and if one isn't
prepared to handle accordingly, cash only seems appropriate.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:51 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

I tend to agree with georgeob1. Credit cards are a good thing, unless one
has a spending habit above their income and limits. I could not do without
credit cards, as I mostly do online shopping - airline tickets, gifts, books etc. etc.
I pay for groceries with an ATM, and sometimes I pay cash for small things,
but only sometimes.

Owning a credit card comes with financial responsibilities and if one isn't
prepared to handle accordingly, cash only seems appropriate.


I pay for stuff online using my 'check' card, or debit card which draws directly from my account instead of a credit line. Works like a charm.

Technically this piggy-backs on the credit system, but I can't get away from that fact unfortunately.

Cycloptichorn
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Practically anytime time you buy something you hurt someone or something in the world - no matter how you pay for it. Unless you made it from scratch and grew it yourself the product probably involved suffering or environmental destruction. It's hard to have clean hands and a pure soul in this world.

Believe me Cyclo, I know what you are saying. I'm the Queen of Voluntary Simplicity. I paid cash for my house/farm. I've never had a car loan. I have never borrowed money, I have a great FICO score. I spent the first 15 years of my working life living on half my salary - just because I could. I now make what the government considers poverty level, but I live better than most people making six figures. I learned early that it is easier to spend money than make it. Later I learned that poverty sucks and responsible money management was the key to security. I'm all for less consumerism. The consumer supply line could collapse tomorrow and I'm one of the few people who would not panic.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, you shouldn't use your ATM - especially online, as you have no
recourses, if money is withdrawn unauthorized. It directly will be deducted
from your account and it is upon you to prove that the deduction wasn't
justified. So, don't use your ATM online!

Credit card institutions insure and protect you against fraudulent charges,
your ATM account won't - unless you can prove any wrong doing and until
you have done so, you're out the money!
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I don't like the idea of being on some huge mortgage for 30 years, which I can't even believe saves you money given the interest rates and fees associated with home ownership.

I feel exactly the same way. I bought my houses from the time I was thirty until four years ago when I sold my last one - and its been the most freeing thing in the world for me (not to be a homeowner).
I do miss doing my own garden - but that's about it - and I can get an allotment to do that in. I save so much money that I'd have been spending on home renovations and repairs - I was always at Lowes or Home Depot - just because I like change and to create and that's where all my money went.
Of course, I've moved five times in fifteen years - so my personality is more fitting of someone who rents-each time it's like an adventure- where-what kind of house do I want to live in now?
There are definite benefits (even beyond financial-I've saved more money in the past four years than in most of my working years before that) to not being tied to a mortgage and house - but again you have to be the right sort of personality to enjoy it.
I might buy another house sometime, somewhere - but not till I'm ready to settle somewhere - probably when I'm sixty.

Quote:
I just hate the fact that some computer out there probably scores me low, b/c I'm responsible and b/c I don't choose to use the usury system that they have riddled our society with. I am surrounded all day by people who have to make payments on everything and everything... always another bill due. Too much stress.

I agree. I have two credit cards for emergencies- no balance right now - but I've got two kids - so I never say never- I can never foresee the future and say I'll always have enough cash for whatever circumstance arrives.
I look at them as an emergency safety net.
But I paid cash for my car (used), and I use my debit for everything else. I even use it instead of carrying cash - because I've found, that if I want something that costs less than five pounds - and I don't have the cash on me- I won't buy it.
Like if I'm driving home and I think, ' I'd like a sub for lunch'- but I don't have the cash- I'll say to myself - 'just wait til you get home and make yourself a sandwich'.
Whereas if I had the cash - I'd stop in a flash and spend money unnecessarily.
And I can keep tabs on exactly what I spend - on my statement it'll say -3.09 at spar- whereas if I took ten bucks out at the atm - the ten bucks would be gone without a record of where it went.
Carrying my debit card - and nothing else, as often as possible, is a little savings plan I've devised for myself.
I can only spend what I have (unlike a credit card), so I won't be tempted to spend any more than that (unlike a credit card).
Because I do have the sort of personality that likes treats - flowers, music, meals out - whatever. I have to work to be disciplined in that regard.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:06 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Late on a cell phone payment, or a electric bill (which arrived late to your house)? Down goes the credit score.


Neither of these is accurate.

To have either of these show up on your credit report you have to have been sued by the companies and a judge would have to find you guilty and required to pay (called a judgement).

Being 20 days late on your water or cell phone bill will not show up on your credit report, even if you do it every month.

And technically, being 20 days late on your credit card or mortgage won't show up there either, you have to be at least 30 days late for those.


It seems you have a little to learn here.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:08 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure; and that's cool. But like Ebrown said above, you're giving them a cut of all your business, and they reward you with money taken from irresponsible people. I don't like the morality of that.


Oh, and you're not just piggybacking on the credit card system, you're using it fully.

Vendors pay transaciton fees for every credit card transaction, even if it's your debit card being used like a credit card. The vendor avoids the fees if you use your pin number for a transaction; the bank pays those fees. But even then you're not safe, because that bank will just make up those fees on another one of their customers.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:20 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure; and that's cool. But like Ebrown said above, you're giving them a cut of all your business, and they reward you with money taken from irresponsible people. I don't like the morality of that.


Oh, and you're not just piggybacking on the credit card system, you're using it fully.


Nah. I'm not using their usury system, just their physical transaction system. As Chai pointed out, the amounts of money transferred there are negligible, these companies rely on the usury to make money, not transaction fees.

I use paypal where I can. I'm still waiting for a viable online currency to emerge.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:20 am
@Green Witch,
Green Witch wrote:

Practically anytime time you buy something you hurt someone or something in the world - no matter how you pay for it. Unless you made it from scratch and grew it yourself the product probably involved suffering or environmental destruction. It's hard to have clean hands and a pure soul in this world.

Believe me Cyclo, I know what you are saying. I'm the Queen of Voluntary Simplicity. I paid cash for my house/farm. I've never had a car loan. I have never borrowed money, I have a great FICO score. I spent the first 15 years of my working life living on half my salary - just because I could. I now make what the government considers poverty level, but I live better than most people making six figures. I learned early that it is easier to spend money than make it. Later I learned that poverty sucks and responsible money management was the key to security. I'm all for less consumerism. The consumer supply line could collapse tomorrow and I'm one of the few people who would not panic.



That's what I'm talking about - the debt-free life!

Cycloptichorn
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
That's what I'm talking about - the debt-free life!


It's easier than most people think. However, it helps if you don't have children, have your parents pay for your education and spend your 20's making good money.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:34 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Nah. I'm not using their usury system, just their physical transaction system. As Chai pointed out, the amounts of money transferred there are negligible, these companies rely on the usury to make money, not transaction fees.

I use paypal where I can. I'm still waiting for a viable online currency to emerge.

Cycloptichorn


I think that if you will look more closely you will find that you really are using the credit system.

Any bill you pay for services already delivered (telephone, gas, electricity, etc) involves a payment for the cost of the supplier's money (float) involved in providing the service and collecting for it later. On the provider's side the anount of money or credit involved is very substantial, and the cost involved is all-too-real. This is an elementary example of some of the many benefits of our credit system.

You are involved on the other side as well if you get a periodic (bi weekly or monthly) paycheck (or automatic deposit). In effect you are lending your employer your labor for the duration of the pay period. I can assure you that this value reflects on his balance sheet just as would a debt to a bank or a supplier.

"Usery" is a rather medieval term. Do you believe that the charging of interest for money loaned is evil or otherwise inherently undesirable? How would you do away with it?

"Online currency" in any form will ultimately rest on the inputed value of some promise to pay by a universally accepted source. Think about it for a moment and you will end up with money as we know it in the current credit system.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:37 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

No, I'm not being defensive. No need to explain that to you. That's your feeling, and it's false.


Hmm. I don't think it is false at all. But, whatever. You seem to have gotten the idea at some point that others are judging you, but I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Cycloptichorn



Now, who would be a better judge of how I am being? Me, who knows I am not being defensive, or you, who is only going by your perception?

Anyway, why are you bringing this up again after you have addressed me in another post, and not mentioning it then?

I suppose I could say you are stirring the pot, and you could reply my feelings are false. In the end, it's all blue potatoes.

GW and I could be twins regarding this. It gets to the point where you can't use a toothpick without worrying that you are endangering some species of animal that relies on that particular tree. We all use the earth, and we all do what is most advantageous for us in the end. Even those who say they only do things according to a strong moral compass and altruistically, doing the least amount of harm possible to even one human being, are doing this because in some way it is most advantageous to them in the end, or along the way.

Your comment of they reward you with money taken from irresponsible people. I don't like the morality of that. again prompts me to ask, So?

Many people are irresponsible. Period, full stop.

If I see a irresponsible person drop a gum wrapper on the ground, and I pick it up because at that moment I need to write down a phone number, and have a pen, but no paper, am I taking advantage of that person?

If irresponsible people weren't being irresponsible with their money, they would be acting irresponsibly with something else. Because, irresponsible people are irresponsible. Period, full stop.

So, what? Would I be a better, more moral person if I said to myself, "I will no longer accept credit card points because it is causing the suffering of others." ?
If I did that, and even if as an individual it had an impact of the interest rate incurred by irresponsible people, they take that 3 cents, dollar or hundred dollars they gained because I so honorably refused an evil benefit, and go be irresponsible with that money somewhere else.

Oh, I can't know that?
Well, they were irresponsible in the first place, since some people are still paying off a Michael Jackson Thriller album because of accrued interest, so I feel pretty safe in saying they'll just apply that money to some other useless thing, like a battery operated paper clip remover.

This isn't a question of whether someone is not behaving morally by being smart enough to look for benefits.

It's a question of people not behaving morally because they are irresponsible.

Why am I immoral, and someone who gets themselves into trouble with credit cards, not?

Poor starving single mother with ill shod children are the exception. People behaving immorally, like during the collapse of the Roman Empire, by mindless self indulgenge are the problem. Not me, or Green Witch.

If credit card companies are immoral, they have just teammed up with people who wish to have that immoral lifestyle, with no thought of paying the piper.

You hear a lot on the radio and other news lately, people saying "This bailout, (or fill in any other blank) is going to be something our grandchildren, great grandchildren, children 10 generations from now are going to be paying for."

How ******* self rightous. The people who are worried today about their great grand babies paying the piper certainly weren't concerned about it when they were buying aftershave, electronics, new eye shadow or a big ass engagement ring and over the top wedding.

Like I said before, if anyone wants to complain, take it to the right address.

People like me aren't causing the dike to spring leaks, and crumble.


0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:39 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


That's what I'm talking about - the debt-free life!

Cycloptichorn



Hey!!!

Guess what I have!!!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 11:12 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Nah. I'm not using their usury system, just their physical transaction system. As Chai pointed out, the amounts of money transferred there are negligible, these companies rely on the usury to make money, not transaction fees.

I use paypal where I can. I'm still waiting for a viable online currency to emerge.

Cycloptichorn


I think that if you will look more closely you will find that you really are using the credit system.

Any bill you pay for services already delivered (telephone, gas, electricity, etc) involves a payment for the cost of the supplier's money (float) involved in providing the service and collecting for it later. On the provider's side the anount of money or credit involved is very substantial, and the cost involved is all-too-real. This is an elementary example of some of the many benefits of our credit system.

You are involved on the other side as well if you get a periodic (bi weekly or monthly) paycheck (or automatic deposit). In effect you are lending your employer your labor for the duration of the pay period. I can assure you that this value reflects on his balance sheet just as would a debt to a bank or a supplier.

"Usery" is a rather medieval term. Do you believe that the charging of interest for money loaned is evil or otherwise inherently undesirable? How would you do away with it?

"Online currency" in any form will ultimately rest on the inputed value of some promise to pay by a universally accepted source. Think about it for a moment and you will end up with money as we know it in the current credit system.


Should I be using a different term, then? Not for usury, but for the concept of eschewing the use of credit when possible?

I realize that not every transaction can be paid for up front, or up to the minute - service contracts can be seen as terms of credit. But that's not really what I meant at all.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 11:30 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I think I recognized your meaning well enough. I was simply pointing out that you were not in fact entirely exempting yourself from the credit system. Indeed you use, and benefit, from it on a regular basis. Instead you prefer to keep your accounts in balance on a regular (say monthly) basis and avoid carrying debt over from one period to the next.

That's what I do too. However, I usually don't make a big deal about it, and I try (not always successfully) to avoid blaming others for my own mistakes.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 11:32 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I think I recognized your meaning well enough. I was simply pointing out that you were not in fact entirely exempting yourself from the credit system. Indeed you use, and benefit, from it on a regular basis. Instead you prefer to keep your accounts in balance on a regular (say monthly) basis and avoid carrying debt over from one period to the next.

That's what I do too.


Fair enough.

I can't understand why people don't do this...

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I can't understand why people don't do this...

Cycloptichorn


Good question. Think of the folks who buy (or once bought) automobiles on credit - usually paying a premium of about 30% on the cost of the vehicle. If, instead, they saved enough, just once, to buy a car for cash and started making payments to themselves in savings for the replacement vehicle at the same time, their long term cash flow would be reduced and the cumulative savings would easily buy several vehicles.

The answer is that when folks are optimistic and expect future earnings to be higher, delaying gratification and saving seems foolish. Alternatively, when the future looks grim, spending appears foolish. This is the basic cause of the cycles in capitalism. (Socialist systems have cycles too, but because central, authoritarian control so suppresses both innovation and the human spirit, they are much smaller and everyone ends up more uniformly poor (except of course those at the top who make the rules.).
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 12:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I do have a credit card. I don't use it much, but I'm keeping it around, for one of the reasons you name: American society uses your credit score to measure your trustworthiness as a person. I am not going to change American society. Therefore I keep a credit card around just to have a credit score. But as I said, I don't use it much. I use my two debit cards instead.

I have no problems saving and paying for things with cash.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 12:18 pm
@georgeob1,
For us, the use of credit is calculated on cost vs benefit. Credit cards get paid off before interest accrues, but sometimes we use credit on a 90-days-same-as-cash basis or six-months-same-as-cash basis and, rather than draining our savings lower than we like, we take advantage of the interest free credit and draw whatever interest, however meager, by keeping the cash in the bank as long as possible.

We probably should but don't pay off the business cars entirely before buying the next one--BUT--if we shop carefully, taking advantage of sales and rebates plus factoring the increased maintenance costs on the older vehicles, all of which offset negotiated interest costs, we can keep dependable wheels on the road with a minimum of extra expense. It's worth it to me not having to worry about whether the vehicle will get me from Point A to Point B out in the desert 50 miles from anywhere.

For in town work, however, I drive a 13-year-old Subaru and don't worry about whether it is entirely dependable as assistance is only a few minutes away should I break down someplace. That car has been paid off for a very long time, it still makes a respectable appearance, and it makes no economic sense to replace it.

A mortgage is a no brainer. We all have to live someplace and few of us can pay cash for our house. So long as we can afford the payments and pay reasonable attention to location and quality of the house so that we can ensure that it will appreciate more or less as much as the interest and maintenance costs, owning one's home makes much more sense than paying rent.
 

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