32
   

Does anyone else eschew credit?

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:46 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
Roger, I agree with you, I do not have, or use a debit card. I have never been able to see the sense in them, and for me they would serve no purpose.


How do you get cash? Do you go to the teller during business hours? I like debit cards for ATM access to cash so I don't have to go inside the bank during business hours, and don't know any other easy way around that.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:52 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I have an ATM card that isn't a debit card. Just a cash card.

I went for years without carrying cash. I charged everything, like Chai does, and paid it off every month so as to not incur fees. No points, no awards or miles, just easier for me to have all of my expenses in one place and write one check at the end of the month. I still do that for the most part, but I did get a cash card a couple years ago for when we travel and might need to get cash somewhere. Once I had it, I started using it. Now I carry cash but I still charge almost everything.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:54 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

It's only gambling if the individual lacks the self-control to avoid the debt. Maybe Chai doesn't have that problem and has no issue with using it as a payment instrument without incurring any interest charges.

I personally intend to have credit cards with nice high limits for the rest of my life. I don't intend to ever run up debt on the cards again, and have no concern at all about my ability to control my finances.

It's only gambling if you lack the self-control. I think what ebrown said makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. But it doesn't mean it's a gamble for all. I know a lot of people who use credit cards as a tool, and it's financially no different than using a debit card for them, and it comes with more security and other perks.

I certainly think it can be a wise part of personal finances, as long as you have self-control.


You misunderstand. It is not the cardholder who is gambling, but the credit card companies. The cardholder is the horse being bet on.

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You misunderstand. It is not the cardholder who is gambling, but the credit card companies. The cardholder is the horse being bet on.


I see. I agree with that. And I fully support those who have the self-control to beat the house.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:03 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
I have an ATM card that isn't a debit card. Just a cash card.


I see. I didn't know you could get them without the debit card (not that it matters hugely to me, I have use for a debit card as well).
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yeah, that's the problem alright! Laughing

Cycloptichorn


and again I say, So?

credit card companies make more of their money off huge late fees and interest rates. My penny or two off a transaction does not add up to a spit in the ocean compared to what the average person pays in interest each month.

If the only way credit card companies made money was to charge that same transaction rate, and did not charge an interest rate or fees, people would not have the debt problem they do.

Credit card companies are a business, and has such, they do deserve to turn a profit. I'm not saying rates and fees aren't too high, but I'm not paying them, and that's where the problems come from, not the per transaction fee. Which of course is paid by the vendor, which he should be glad to do because I bought something from him.

If you're going to be mad at the credit card industry, at least be mad at the obvious problem, interest and fees, and not the piss ant transaction fees, which are not coming from a starving single mother, but the business owner, who knew going into this that in accepting credit cards this was part of the deal.

I just musing here, I don't know the answer....but....

What if (major fantasy coming up) every single person who uses a credit card started this month to pay off whatever it was they charged this month? Let's not consider prior amounts owed, this is my fantasy.

Do you think the credit card companies would still be flying jets around and living high on the hog off the transaction fees they charge?

Of course not.

Don't piss and moan credit cards shouldn't exist, when it was people's inability to govern their need for immediate satisfaction. Piss and moan about those people.

I didn't have to get in credit card trouble to figure that out. Sorry if that makes me part of the evil empire.

Of course there's people who have money problems despite their best efforts to make ends meet, and were never extravegant and tried to live within their means. Perhaps an illness came up, or a job lost.

I believe that is a small minority of people with credit card woes. More likely they have their debt because they had to have that pair of shoes, TV, vacation, this that and the other....NOW. They had to have a big christmas every year for their kids, buy the latest electronics because everyone was doing it, waste money on all kinds of ****. Spending money on stuff they can't even remember.

I can't help it if they were so stupid and short sighted, and I'm not going to be left holding the bag because I use credit in a sensible way.

People who buy stuff not understanding they will pay interest every month until it's paid off are as dense as those who don't get it that sex makes you pregnant.

Credit has been around since Ug wanted to own Oog's fancy cutting rock, and didn't want to wait until he could make his own.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:15 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I don't use credit. I don't have credit cards. I have some student loans which I am paying off as fast as I can.

I hate the whole credit system, and how the 'credit score' has worked its' way into the center of our society's communal worries.

Does anyone else not use credit?

Have you been successful in saving and paying for things with cash?

I ask, b/c I had a conversation with a few people today who were incredulous and couldn't believe that anyone would not have multiple credit cards, etc.. For some reason they couldn't seem to wrap their head around the idea.

Cycloptichorn

I feel the same way, although I have bank loans for my condo and car, and keep a credit card around for dire emergencies. I don't actually use the credit card. The idea of credit isn't necessarily bad, but it's present manifestation is criminal. I have no desire to succumb to a trick to put me in the thrall of a credit card company for the rest of my life. They shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing, or charge the rates they charge, or unilaterally raise someone's rates. Congress has simply abdicated. Even the measures proposed by Congress are pathetically inadequate.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:17 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

sorry, but I use credit and do nothing but benefit from it.

I buy as many items as I can with my credit card that's designated for regular use, even an item that costs a dollar or two.

In 3 years I've been using a card that earns points I have not bought anything I would not have bought if I had the cash, I pay it off each month and have gotten more than $1000 worth of gas cards and debit gift cards. I use it to take advantage of timing purchases to get the most for my money, I'm sure saving a at least another thousand dollars. Besides the purchases I would have made anyway with cash, I love it when I can charge a business expense on my personal card, getting reimbursed electronically within 1 or 2 business days, and being able to earn the points.

That's a tax free investment with no risk. Why shouldn't I take advantage of earning $700 a year from it?

Obviously there's not many people like me. But I'm proof credit is not always a bad thing.

Any benefits they pay you are small compared to the interest they charge. You will inevitably sometime have a pressing need, incur more debt that you can't pay easily, and then they will raise your rate to something that simply cannot be paid. It's simply not safe to try to outsmart professional vultures.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:20 pm
@chai2,
You seem awful defensive. Please recall that I said I have no desire to tell anyone else how to live their lives.

I mostly started this thread to ask other people about their experiences eschewing the use of credit, not to tell you that you're wrong for using it, or get into an ideological argument about whether or not credit card companies exist.

Quote:

Credit has been around since Ug wanted to own Oog's fancy cutting rock, and didn't want to wait until he could make his own.


Agreed. I just wait until I can make my own. That way, you don't get into trouble when the rug is pulled out from under ya unexpectedly.

People sure seem to have strong opinions about credit...

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:14 pm
The fact is that credit stimulates and facilitates economic activity of all kinds - we all benefit greatly from it. The economic difficulties we are facing now all stem from the loss of liquidity in our credit system, and we are seeing all phases of economic life, from home building, to consumer products and industry contracting significantly. The result is higher unemployment for many; the loss of invested assets for others, and a general loss of opportunity for nearly everyone.

In that respect credit is surely a good thing. For individuals credit is either good or bad depending on the use you make of the funds. If you use more than you can repay or waste it on ephemeral things then you are very likely to regret it later and consider it "bad". If fact it was only your own foolishness that was bad. Blaming "credit" or the lender in such a case is an act of self deception and delusion.

I have a couple of credit cards and lines of credit. Well over 90% of my total spending is done on credit cards or checks - cash purchases are becoming increasingly rare. I pay credit cards off monthly, saving interest bearing credit only for purchases that, as investments, promise a net positive expected return after the interest is paid. It doesn't always work out that way, but overall I am ahead.

I believe the essential point is to reconcile your lifestyle to your means and, at the same time, make some provision (savings or investment) for the future. (As others here have noted, a good deal of our spending is merely habit and doesn't yield proportional lasting pleasure.) One has to get ahead of this game only once, and he/she can avoid needless continuing interest payments for the rest of his life. This is the essential thing - whether one does this with cash or credit cards is immaterial.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:55 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

...In that respect credit is surely a good thing. For individuals credit is either good or bad depending on the use you make of the funds. If you use more than you can repay or waste it on ephemeral things then you are very likely to regret it later and consider it "bad". If fact it was only your own foolishness that was bad. Blaming "credit" or the lender in such a case is an act of self deception and delusion....

How about if you get a card with a 7% interest rate, spend $1000, which you are repaying perfectly well, and suddenly the company raises your rate to 25% for unspecified bad credit history? Is that the result of your poor planning? Is unscrupulous behavior by credit card companies and unilaterally tripling your rate for trifles or for nothing at all the card holder's fault?
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 12:24 am
You really just have to get into debt over your head once before realizing what's happening.

When I was a single mom, I always used to pay more than the bill, whatever it might be, hydro, gas, etc., and always had a credit on my accounts, just in case of emergencies. You know, if the bill was $79.00, I'd pay 100.00. Over time, that added up quite significantly. That policy has stayed with me since. As time went on, the spending got bigger, but I only spent if I had the money to pay it off each month. I hate giving Revenue Canada and the banks any money at all so I go out of my way to avoid it, legally.

I have never been a frivolous spender, mainly I used it for big purchases, like furniture. And you really have to have a credit card in many instances just to secure the deal, like renting something, buying an airplane ticket, etc.

The whole value of credit scores, on the other hand, eludes me. Used to be the bank tellers knew you and you had no problem... today, it's a pig in a poke... all numbers and no personalities involved. That's one reason I like to deal with credit unions instead of banks.

Most everything I do is with debit (cash) and I do everything online (statements, payments, etc). I don't want anymore paper in my house than I have to have. And you can check it every day if you so choose, instead of monthly.

That's my 2 cents.


0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 05:40 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You seem awful defensive. Please recall that I said I have no desire to tell anyone else how to live their lives.

I mostly started this thread to ask other people about their experiences eschewing the use of credit, not to tell you that you're wrong for using it, or get into an ideological argument about whether or not credit card companies exist.

Quote:

Credit has been around since Ug wanted to own Oog's fancy cutting rock, and didn't want to wait until he could make his own.


Agreed. I just wait until I can make my own. That way, you don't get into trouble when the rug is pulled out from under ya unexpectedly.

People sure seem to have strong opinions about credit...

Cycloptichorn



No, I'm not being defensive. No need to explain that to you. That's your feeling, and it's false.

And Brandon, no, that time will not come when I have a pressing need and have to buy something that is not within my means to pay off the next month.
Hasn't happened in 30 years of adulthood. In those 30 I've acquired enough backup resources to prevent that from happening now or in the future. In addition, in that time I've acquired enough material things of lasting use and value that there's virtually nothing else I need besides day to day items that get used up day to day.




Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:26 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You seem awful defensive. Please recall that I said I have no desire to tell anyone else how to live their lives.

I mostly started this thread to ask other people about their experiences eschewing the use of credit, not to tell you that you're wrong for using it, or get into an ideological argument about whether or not credit card companies exist.

Quote:

Credit has been around since Ug wanted to own Oog's fancy cutting rock, and didn't want to wait until he could make his own.


Agreed. I just wait until I can make my own. That way, you don't get into trouble when the rug is pulled out from under ya unexpectedly.

People sure seem to have strong opinions about credit...

Cycloptichorn



No, I'm not being defensive. No need to explain that to you. That's your feeling, and it's false.

And Brandon, no, that time will not come when I have a pressing need and have to buy something that is not within my means to pay off the next month.
Hasn't happened in 30 years of adulthood. In those 30 I've acquired enough backup resources to prevent that from happening now or in the future. In addition, in that time I've acquired enough material things of lasting use and value that there's virtually nothing else I need besides day to day items that get used up day to day.


You're trying to "play" unscrupulous loan sharks who are absolutely trying to trick you into falling into their power. Bear in mind that one of their most common tricks is to triple the interest rate for some imagined offense on your part. It's a very dangerous game, even if you're more vigilant than every other human.
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:28 am
@Cycloptichorn,
my score is like low 400's or somethin.

but i dont care. i dont like credit cards, i dont like loans.
anything with interest IMO is dumb.

i hate credit checks, its like FAIL.

hope when i get a job and my own place they dont credit check.

which they will.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:35 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

It's only gambling if the individual lacks the self-control to avoid the debt. Maybe Chai doesn't have that problem and has no issue with using it as a payment instrument without incurring any interest charges.

I personally intend to have credit cards with nice high limits for the rest of my life. I don't intend to ever run up debt on the cards again, and have no concern at all about my ability to control my finances.

It's only gambling if you lack the self-control. I think what ebrown said makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. But it doesn't mean it's a gamble for all. I know a lot of people who use credit cards as a tool, and it's financially no different than using a debit card for them, and it comes with more security and other perks.

I certainly think it can be a wise part of personal finances, as long as you have self-control.


umm, there is another side to the argument in my opinion of course.

laid off?

unemployment up?

no income?

credit card?

hrmmm....

*DEBT*

of course, self control is a big part of it.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:45 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

You're trying to "play" unscrupulous loan sharks who are absolutely trying to trick you into falling into their power. Bear in mind that one of their most common tricks is to triple the interest rate for some imagined offense on your part. It's a very dangerous game, even if you're more vigilant than every other human.


Brandon, what are you not understanding that it wouldn't matter if they raised my interest rate 10 fold, 100 fold?

I do not carry a balance foward on my day to day card....ever.

Because of these habits over the years, I own my home free and clear, my property taxes are capped, I have no car loan, and if I need a new car I could buy one today with no loan.

At one point someone that I hadn't been married to for years tried to involve me in his bankruptsy, threatening my credit.

Didn't work. My credit suffered no damage because I knew what to do to avoid that. If I could make it through that unforeseen even unscathed, there isn't anything that I couldn't handle at this point in my life.

I'm sorry to disappoint you brandon, but I'm not playing any game, I'm not, nor ever will be in credit card debt.

That's not a defensive statement, that is a fact. No illness, loss of employment, etc. will change that for me.

Robert said it best in stating it's the credit card company that's gambling, I'm not, because I'm not playing their game.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 08:39 am
And legally, if the credit card company does raise your rate from 7 to 25% for some reason, you have the legal right to close that account under the old terms of your 7% offer, thereby not suffering at all.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:19 am
I do exactly what Chai does and it works very well if you behave like a responsible grown-up. I have never paid a credit card fee in my life, but I have made money from my cards ( I have two, one for personal and one for business). I don't even know what the usury interest rate is on them. I picked them because they offer the best return. I don't float purchases . I never buy anything I don't already have the cash for. I treat them like a standard 30 bill and not found money.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:37 am
@Green Witch,
Sure; and that's cool. But like Ebrown said above, you're giving them a cut of all your business, and they reward you with money taken from irresponsible people. I don't like the morality of that.

This conversation has really focused on credit cards, but that's really only a part of what the 'credit' system is these days. Everything in your payment history is linked. Late on a cell phone payment, or a electric bill (which arrived late to your house)? Down goes the credit score.

I'm saving for a house right now. I don't have a ton in the bank but over the next decade I think that will rise considerably. I don't like the idea of being on some huge mortgage for 30 years, which I can't even believe saves you money given the interest rates and fees associated with home ownership.

I just hate the fact that some computer out there probably scores me low, b/c I'm responsible and b/c I don't choose to use the usury system that they have riddled our society with. I am surrounded all day by people who have to make payments on everything and everything... always another bill due. Too much stress.

I live my life much in the same fashion as RG; not a ton of possessions, I save money, not a lot to hold me down or back. It's too bad that according to the system of judgment our banks and others rely on, this makes me a bad consumer...

Cycloptichorn
 

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