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ali vs. tyson, swift vs. brute, none the less heart vs. heart

 
 
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:27 pm
i'm a huge fan of boxing. so obviously the names ali and tyson come to mind. both are and always will remain as milestones in the sport of boxing or under any other physical contact sport. but you have to wonder, who would win in a boxing match if they fought prime vs. prime. ali was as swift and agile as it will ever get, but while tyson managed to be swifter than most, his brute strength ended alot of his matches early. would tyson win against ali if they could both go back to their prime?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,991 • Replies: 22
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:39 pm
@FightKing88,
I've seen both fight in their prime. I was fan of Ali's and have seen all of his fights (some several times). I've seen most of Tyson's. One can never be certain....as comparisons of fighters of different eras is sketchy at best. However, I'll say this - Ali fought a few fighters as fast and as strong as Tyson and beat them in his prime. If you say you're a fan of fights, then perhaps you can compare Tyson to Frazier, Ken Norton or George Formean in their prime. Ali took them all 0n, and with the exception of his later years, he beat them all and made them look like bums.Take a look back at the Ali-George Foreman fight and see what you think. Ali scientifically cut down the ring and minimized his opponents power with his speed and counter-punching. His skill and speed as a heavyweight had never before been seen and is likely NOT to be seen again.
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:40 pm
I'm thinking Ali.
Seen Ali-Foreman?
George
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:40 pm
@George,
Rags beat me to it.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:41 pm
@George,
George: GMTA. and if you have any doubts, listen to George Foreman talking aout Ali as a fighter and their match. He tells it like it was. He was the best of the modern era of boxing ..including this one.
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:00 pm
Do you guys really think Foreman had the speed and power that Tyson did? Don't get me wrong, Ali is a far superior boxer to Tyson, but I still don't think Ali faced anyone like Tyson and I'm not sure who'd win in a matchup.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:23 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert: if you can see some of the best fights of Foreman and Norton in their prime, you can get a good sense of their relative speed and power. I think if Foreman was slower (hand speed) it wasn't by too much.

Tyson in his prime was blazingly fast (feet and hands both)...there is no doubt....his jabs and combinations were vicious and his attacks were brutal, but many times with inferior opponents. I pitied anyone that got in the ring with him when Tyson was aged 19 - 28.

Ali fought at a time when the overall quality of the fighters was better and he still beat them -- sometimes handily. As I wrote earlier...comparisons of fighters of different eras is a dubious endeavor. I'm pretty sure ESPN has some of the classic fights of the 60s-80s it runs regularly. Check out Ali-Foreman fight. Of course, Ali-Frazier should be watched too..but Frazier wasn't AS blazingly fast (as Tyson)..he was just was incredibly strong, skilled..and you could hit him with anything...or drop a safe on him ...and he still kept on coming. Reminded me of a shark!

But here's another thing that Ali had that none of the others had of any era. He had creativity and as a fight tacticiand he was unsurapssed. He could change his tactics to suit the opponent. It's amazing when you see how he adapted..even as his own abilitiies eroded later in his career.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:29 pm
@Ragman,
I've seen the fights more than a few times, I just don't think Foreman was anywhere near Tyson in speed or power.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:36 pm
I'm not disagreeing, but...

Old George could take way more punishment than Tyson.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
OK...I defer to your assessment and memory about Foreman's hand speed but not his power. See the Foreman-Frazier 1973 fight in Jamaica (Cossell yelling "down goes Frazier..down goes Frazier 6 times) and also Foreman-Norton 1974 venezeuela fight. Foreman's punches lifted Norton OFF the ground several times. It looked like a lumberjack chopping wood.

Back to the Ali-Forman fight..those rounds you isolated in the video, you're seeing there is Ali getting Forman to get sucked into his "Rope-a-dope" getting him to expend his power and tire him mentally with ineffective body shots..and shots to his sides. However, I did state, in retropsect, Foreman was not as fast hand speed as I had thought.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 07:01 pm
@Ragman,
oops..my goof...I erred. I was loking at the video of Ali-Foreman, but your video shows Ali-Frazier III.


Oh, and to exemplify Tyson';s ability, here are a few of Tyson's fight videos against toughest opponents:
Tyson-Bruno (look who and what the HELL he's fighting here):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqesl_Nwvaw

Tyson-Berbick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MY3RtJUrD8&feature=related

Tyson Best KO's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjCV1NG4T04&NR=1
0 Replies
 
thegalacticemperor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 08:42 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Tyson was faster than Foreman. But more powerful? I think not. Foreman was a monster!
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:53 pm
@thegalacticemperor,
yeah. I'm telling you..he had arms like tree trunks. Gotta see him in motion circa 1974-ish. Lifted Ken Norton off the ground several times with uppercuts....like he was a toy doll.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 09:03 am
I had the pleasure of meeting Ali in the late 1970's. He was standing in a hotel lobby where we were staying, and for whatever reason, I walked right over to him and introduced myself, just to shake his hand, as he was one of my heroes growing up. Oddly, he held out a limp hand, and mumbled through a slight smile. I still wonder if what I saw was the early stages of Parkinsons, or perhaps drugs to counter its effects. I bumped into him again the next day, and he played a trick on me. He was much more alert and just like the Ali you all saw jabbering to the media on TV.

What struck me about the man was his size. You don't get a real feel for that seeing someone on television. Ali was 6'3" tall, and that might have been understated. His hands were like catchers mitts - giant things on the end of impossibly long arms. This man never bought a suit off the rack - everything must have been custom made.

I still think of those two meetings quite often. I wish I could have spoke with him longer, but, I was just a star struck kid.

And oh yea, Ali would have beaten Tyson, if he could survive the initial onslaught. I'm sure he would have the right tactics in place.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 03:32 pm
@cjhsa,
Yup! good story. Ali was 6 ft 3 in and but he had an 80 inch reach. That's a full 5 inches longer than his height. As an arbitrary physical comparison, I'm 67.5 in with a 67.5 in reach. If I were a boxer, I'd have had (pun intended) a short career.
0 Replies
 
FightKing88
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 08:28 pm
@cjhsa,
i agree that ali was agile and could out menouver like no other. people compare tyson to foreman in an attempt to figure out who would have won between ali and tyson. granted foremans power was unparalleled even today. but foreman was like a rotweiller in a dogfight, the rotweiler is loaded with weight (mostly muscle), much like foreman. but that much power is nearly worthless when the rotweilers opponent is as swift as ali was. in my opinion mike tyson reminds me of the pitbull. he wasn't by any means the heavier in some (often most) of his matches, but he had nearly a perfect weight to strength ratio all while managing to be more agile than his opponents while in his prime. without a doubt, i believe that if their was to be a perfect match it would be between the swift ali vs the brute/swift mike tyson. i just think that ali's "ropa-dope" techniques would be setting himself up for getting hurt due to mike tysons relentless attacks. experts who have observed mike tyson claim that his right blow (which he never really got a chance to use) would have been powerfull enough to break the forearm of an opponent who stood in front of him long enough
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 08:33 pm
@FightKing88,
tyson is one of the scariest people ive ever imagine fighting.

he looks rabid almost, feral, crazy ass dude.

yay for youtube, ive never seen ali..


:O
0 Replies
 
FightKing88
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 08:43 pm
@thegalacticemperor,
without a doubt foreman was the stronger compared to tyson. ali told a story of how he was training before the rumble in the jungle and that george foreman would intimidate ali by waiting till ali would jog past foremans training room and would deliver a right blow to the 200 lb heavybag and leave it looking like a sideways V. ali was smart enough to respect and outwit foremans heavy hands. Even though foreman was (and probably set a record of being one of) the most heavy hitting boxers of all time, he was limited to how many "power punches" he could throw before his own muscle started getting in the way. george is another hero of mine... but sorry george, you just weren't swift enough Lol
0 Replies
 
FightKing88
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 08:46 pm
@Robert Gentel,
i agree foreman had strength without a doubt, but it was worthless when he would overexert himself. tyson had a perfect combo of strength and agility
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 10:32 pm
Ali, in 5, especially if you are talking about the Ali before his forced retirement in 1967. Tyson never fought anybody with such hand speed nor ability to slip or take punch. Ali fought, and beat some really outstanding fighters, (Liston, Patterson, Moore, Quarry, Frazier, Foreman). Tyson fought the Bums of the Month Club.

There is no comparison between the two boxers in skill.
 

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