A sale to kill for

@Intrepid,

I think I agree with Phoenix, that the people rushing (taking off the door????) are at some fault. Heard of buffalo?

But I also see the set up is questionable.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Quote:

I think I agree with Phoenix, that the people rushing (taking off the door????) are at some fault. Heard of buffalo?

But I also see the set up is questionable.

These doors are not that sturdy, they are not meant to be pushed against. When they are by sufficient weight they collapse, as they did in this case. The problem was caused by the fact that the customers were allowed to push up against the doors, they never should have been allowed to crowd up against the doors. There should have been security people in front, keeping the people back from the door and keeping the people calmly organized. A huge number of people had been out front for well over an hour, that this would happen was completely foreseeable. That walmart managers allowed employees and contractors to get in harms way by trying to push back against the doors from the inside in order to prevent the collapse was depraved indifference. The did not have the proper security outside so they tried to gerry rig a solution from the inside, and this poor sap got killed.

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Let's blame the retailer then, whose job really is to get as many people into the store as possible for the holiday season.

Let's blame the door manufacturer as well, who installed inadequate doors that couldn't handle an insane mob pushing against it.

But let's not under any circumstances blame individuals, right? They are under no obligation to act in a personally responsible manner. The GREEDY retailer did it. The GREEDY door manufacturer is to blame. How pathetic this idea is.

When the news was announced that the police were closing the store to deal with the body, another near-riot ensued, with people chanting, "KEEP SHOPPING!"

Let's blame the police as well.

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What are the chances that two guys with their wives/girlfriends/female companions go to the same store and get into a gunfight after the women get into a fistfight?

And what kind of fellow finds it necessary to go to Toys R Us locked and loaded in the first place?

There's something about the Christmas spirit here I'm not getting.

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@PDiddie,

It's disturbing that some people will take their weapons to a Toys R Us to begin with, but for holiday shopping? What are they thinking, and who are they? Is this the beginning of the end of America as we've known it? It seems almost anything is possible, and it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to think what is now possible in the future of this country. Mumbai?

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@PDiddie,

Quote:

And what kind of fellow finds it necessary to go to Toys R Us locked and loaded in the first place?

Can it be that you haven't met shiksa?

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@tycoon,

Quote:

Let's blame the retailer then, whose job really is to get as many people into the store as possible for the holiday season. no, their job is to be an responsible merchant, to include doing what they can to see that the safety of their workers is looked after

Let's blame the door manufacturer as well, who installed inadequate doors that couldn't handle an insane mob pushing against it. Um, That would be Wal-mart, they who paid to put the building up and choose the door used

But let's not under any circumstances blame individuals, right? They are under no obligation to act in a personally responsible manner. They are, Just as we held the German people responsible for their actions in ww2 even though they were manipulated into their behaviour by the nazi party The GREEDY retailer did it. The GREEDY door manufacturer is to blame. How pathetic this idea is.

When the news was announced that the police were closing the store to deal with the body, another near-riot ensued, with people chanting, "KEEP SHOPPING!" The guy was gone, the damage had been done, what was the reason for closing the store at this point? If it had been to deal with the traumatized employees then there would be a point, but so far as I can tell that ain't what happened. Absent communicating a reason for the action the resistance of the shoppers after they had invested hours of their time waiting for the open, is understandable. Let's blame the police as well.

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What was the reason for closing the store? There were murderers inside, that's what for. I know they were quite busy, running up and down the aisles like kindergarteners, grabbing sale items, cutting in front of lines, impatient to get to the next big sale event, but I think it was well within the purview of the police department to stop this insanity and interrogate suspects.

Quit defending these cold-hearted, greedy people and blaming the merchants and manufacturers. It's so unbecoming.

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@tycoon,

Quote:

What was the reason for closing the store? There were murderers inside, that's what for. I know they were quite busy, running up and down the aisles like kindergarteners, grabbing sale items, cutting in front of lines, impatient to get to the next big sale event, but I think it was well within the purview of the police department to stop this insanity and interrogate suspects.

Is that what happened? I think what happened is that the store was closed, and your "suspects" were told to leave with all possible haste, thus no "interrogations" took place. What if the store had stayed open, and walmart had credit card numbers and checks from some of these people, would it not be easier to conduct this investigation now if they had that instead of only some video of some of the people as they do now?

Your argument holds no water.

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My argument is simply to put the blame squarely where the blame lies--on the unacceptable behavior of people who engage in mob mentality.

Let's look at it from this perspective: You and I are there waiting for the store to open. The crowd begins to get unruly. What would you do? Participate? Egg them on more? Become the ringleader? Or walk away.

The answers I hope are very simple. At least they are for anyone who isn't so engulfed in avarice that reason and personal responsibility are abandoned to get a deal. That's the perfect definition of greed.

For my part, I cannot stand pat while someone tries to shift the blame to a retailer or--of all things--an entrance door manufacturer. Don't obfuscate this tragedy.

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@tycoon,

the members of the mob have responsibility, walmart has responsibility, and the police department has responsibility. Thing is the criminal justice system deals with individuals, it is not suited to dealing with mob action where individual action and responsibility can not be determined. The police can not be called down if they did all they could, as it seems that they did. walmart however can be dealt with in civil court, deprived a multiple millions dollars (and hopefully OSHA fines as well) , and hopefully will feel complete by the self interest of profit of doing a better job in the future in controlling the riots that they incite.

the public interest is best served by making sure that this does not happen again, the best way to do that is to hit Walmart with a very big stick.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

the members of the mob have responsibility, walmart has responsibility, and the police department has responsibility. Thing is the criminal justice system deals with individuals, it is not suited to dealing with mob action where individual action and responsibility can not be determined. The police can not be called down if they did all they could, as it seems that they did. walmart however can be dealt with in civil court, deprived a multiple millions dollars (and hopefully OSHA fines as well) , and hopefully will feel complete by the self interest of profit of doing a better job in the future in controlling the riots that they incite.

the public interest is best served by making sure that this does not happen again, the best way to do that is to hit Walmart with a very big stick.

Thank you for acknowledging the responsibility of persons involved in this. I'm encouraged to see you move toward that reality.

There are security tapes. Individuals hopefully can be identified from those tapes. They can and should be prosecuted. I am not advocating nor never have suggested punishing the so-called "mob".

But that's as far as we have come to agreement. I couldn't disagree more with your assertion that the public's best interest is served by punishing a retailer whose job and responsibility to shareholders is to entice as many customers as they can into their stores. And by simply conducting a sale in your view is grounds for a "multiple million dollar" lawsuit.

You have stated that people have personal responsibility, but your comments following that statement are at odds with that statement. Do you really wish to argue that if a retailer puts on a sale that they can be sued for inciting riots?

There is either personal responsibility or there is not. Which is it?

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@tycoon,

yes there is personal responsibility, there is also corporate responsibility to be a good citizen. Inciting riots and then not controlling them is not good citizenship. It is behaviour so negligent that sanctions must be applied.

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@tycoon,

I agree with you analysis of this matter/issue. Businesses should not be faulted for mob rule and actions by the public. They have "enough" liability without expanding it to negative actions of the consumer.

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@cicerone imposter,

So I suppose you feel that malls should not be responsible for the safety of the people who enter their property, but of course they are. Why? Because with ownership comes responsibility. It is no different for individuals. If I invite you to my house, and another guest attacks you, if i had reason to know before hand that such an event was likely and I took no actions to avert it I would be rung up big time with a liability judgement.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

yes there is personal responsibility, there is also corporate responsibility to be a good citizen. Inciting riots and then not controlling them is not good citizenship. It is behaviour so negligent that sanctions must be applied.

It's now your contention that Wal-Mart incited this riot. Where is the proof of this claim?

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@tycoon,

because this kind of crap happens increasingly every year, as these corporations put more stuff on sale for black Friday, increasingly for only hours, thus time to buy becomes compressed. If I had the data I am sure that I could prove that these corporations have also cut down on the resources they put onto securing the safety of the employees and the shoppers. What they call security is actually almost completely a loss control force, they have no training in anything but shoplifting, nor any mandate to do anything other that catch shoplifters.

When was the last time you saw a professional security guard, with weapon and a uniform that makes him/her look like a cop, at Walmart? They are gone, have been for years where I shop.

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@hawkeye10,

This analogy is not even close to what has occured. You're obfuscating again. I'm not going to bite, and I've said about as much as I can to put the focus on where it belongs--on greedy individuals who feel they are above the law. Why that is so hard to digest is a bit puzzling.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

because this kind of crap happens increasingly every year, as these corporations put more stuff on sale for black Friday, increasingly for only hours, thus time to buy becomes compressed. If I had the data I am sure that I could prove that these corporations have also cut down on the resources they put onto securing the safety of the employees and the shoppers. What they call security is actually almost completely a loss control force, they have no training in anything but shoplifting, nor any mandate to do anything other that catch shoplifters.

When was the last time you saw a professional security guard, with weapon and a uniform that makes him/her look like a cop, at Walmart? They are gone, have been for years where I shop.

Perhaps we should appoint you to the position of Overzealous Corporate Sales Czar. If a Wal-Mart, say, announces a sale of toasters for $5.00 for a limited time on Black Friday, you could initiate your multi-million dollar fine in the name of corporate responsibility. Those greedy bastards should have known it would cause a riot.

1 Reply

@tycoon,

Quote:

This analogy is not even close to what has occured

exactly, security guards were not out controling the crowds. But they should have been.

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