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0123456789 (numerology origins)

 
 
RexRed
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 07:13 pm
Who came up with this type of numbering system?

I have heard it called Arabic and I have also heard that it was in invention of Islam.

Why does the Old Testament Bible recorded long before Islam write of measurements like "four and twenty", seventy times seven etc? These Biblical numeral reckonings seem to be a system based upon ten individual digits.

Numbers 7:88 KJV
And all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace offerings were twenty and four bullocks, the rams sixty, the he goats sixty, the lambs of the first year sixty. This was the dedication of the altar, after that it was anointed .

Comment: Are these numbers Islamic, Arabic, Persian, Chaldaean (Babylonian) or perhaps they even came from the Hebrew boy Daniel when he was taken into Babylonian captivity. Moses perhaps found them in Egypt? Perhaps the Arabs learned them from the Greeks and the Romans tried to subvert the Gnostic idea of zero? The Roman numerals have no “zero”, or do they?

These very same numbers it seems are recorded in the Bible "long before Islam".

In the beginning God (zero) created the heavens (one) and the earth (two)...
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 07:21 pm
@RexRed,
The shapes are Arabic. The concept of counting probably predates the Bible.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 07:50 pm
@jespah,
Quote:
The shapes are Arabic. The concept of counting probably predates the Bible.


Excellent perspective, do you know where the shapes originate specifically?

http://chiotsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/rain-barrel-marks.jpg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17318004.jpg?size=572&uid=%7BD6F258D0-6ABE-4AE4-8767-FEB65139C573%7D

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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 08:28 pm
Zero - was 'invented/discovered' by most literate peoples. It comes to us via the Babylonic stream, but was also in MesoAmerican and Chinese and Indian counting systems. The use of decimal is not a given. Early systems used base 60 or base 20.

The numbering system we use is derived from the use of a standard decimal numbering by Arab mathematicians. They in turn had borrowed it from India, so it is Hindi-Arabic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Arabic_numerals-en.svg/500px-Arabic_numerals-en.svg.png
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 08:35 pm
If you are thinking "Hey, those don't look anything like the numbers I use", you are right. In the ancient world, type was not a 'fixed' idea. Sentences could run left to right then reverse right to left on the next line. Letters frequently 'tipped' over or were streamlined to make it writing faster. If you look at the all the numbers in their 'primitive' form - you can see how they would evolve to a more familiar shape.
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 09:10 am
@Mr Stillwater,
There's a good elegant simplicity with the digits we use. Except for 5 (and you can do that, too, though many people don't), they're all one-stroke characters. But accounts are some of our earliest known writing. There are Egyptian tablets showing accounts for purchases of things like olive oil but also, sadly, slaves.

Mr. Stillwater, it's interesting that the 6 and the 7 are reversed in some of the examples you showed.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 09:17 am
http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/01/abacus-1-ajhd.jpg
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 08:34 pm
@jespah,
Quote:
our earliest known writing


It's true. The records that managed to be preserved are usually atypical. They are lists of kings or royal lineages, otherwise they record transactions. Incredibly useful, but lack the human touch (if you know what I mean),

We are really lucky when they are actual correspondence or items related to day-to-day living. When I was running training courses on keeping records I would always try to bring in the personal perspective. A reciept for your credit card, or for rent, or the stuff you include on your resume are intensely personal and say so much about you as a person.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 10:46 pm
They're only called Arabic numerals because Europeans first encountered them from Arabian sources. They come originally from the Hind . . . the Indian subcontinent.

Trust Rex to construct an entire fantasy castle from this . . . i've never known anyone who raises superstition to such a level . . .
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 09:42 am
@Mr Stillwater,
That's very true, Mr. S. There's something about finding family receipts from 50 years ago, money spent by people long dead, it can really tell you something about that person.
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 04:17 am
@jespah,
For real in one of my library jobs. Found a receipt in a book from the 1930s (? I think).
Cost of a Masonic apron? 12 pounds 5 shillings.
Taking over the world? Priceless.
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 05:27 am
@Mr Stillwater,
When my mother was, I think, about 10 years younger than I currently am, she was going through her mother's personal effects and found an accounting of the costs of her (my mother's, not my grandmother's) wedding, e. g. food (my grandmother did the cooking), rabbi's fee, dress, etc. Very telling.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 02:54 pm
@Setanta,
Set wrote:
They're only called Arabic numerals because Europeans first encountered them from Arabian sources. [/quote ]

Rex wrote:
I agree.

Set wrote:
They come originally from the Hind . . . the Indian subcontinent.


Rex wrote:
I disagree. I believe India got zero from the Chaldaeans (where India also got their “religion“) and the Chaldaeans possibly got “zero” from Daniel. Set, do you know many words of the ancient Chaldaean language? I do… “In Hebrew and Chaldean the word zera has several meanings referring to the seed of the plant.” Are you saying the English word "zero" does not come from Chaldee?


Set wrote:
Trust Rex to construct an entire fantasy castle from this . . . i've never known anyone who raises superstition to such a level . . .


Rex wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 03:10 pm
Daniel 5:26 KJV
This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE ; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

Comment:
There were twelve tribes of Israel, each tribe stood for a constellation in the zodiac. The zodiac being a circle or zero (seed) in the heavens surrounding the earth.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 03:22 pm
Also,

Zoroaster, Chaldaen, zoro = zera

Zoroaster (whether predating Abraham or influencing him) entitled himself with the name “the seed of monotheism”; or, as I interpret it, the emissary of zero.
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