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Man created the gods, why do we believe God created man?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 04:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

To say that 'there is not a shred of evidence that a god exists' flies in the face of hundreds of millions (conservative estimate) who testify that they have experienced God by whatever name....

Give one single shred of evidence for the existence of God other than a claim of personal inner experiences which no one can verify. If indeed there is a God who created the world, then there ought to be some evidence of it. I'm not going to accept, "because I say so," as evidence of the origins of the universe.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 05:17 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:

Why can't you sleep, anyway? Smile


Well, I'm in GMT+2 time zone, your summertime is GMT+1. Which led my conclude that you were up an hour earlier Wink

But I'm usually up earlier on Tuesday since I drive Mrs Walter to her English classes at Folk high school.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 07:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Atheists deny the existence of God and use lack of tangible proof as sufficient justification for their convictions when they are perfectly willing to believe in many other things which they have never experienced or seen just because others testify that such things exist.

Almost makes a case for there being a Satan at work in the world, doesn't it. (That's not a statement. Just a thought.
I've never claimed to be an atheist, and I've never said there is no God I'm just being honest when I say "I dont know". No-one knows. No-one can know. And that includes the theists who imo are either delusional or dishonest when they claim direct knowledge of God.

Good post spendy, I was flagging a bit with the materialistic theory of mind until all became clear with lingerie. So God exists because the idea of God exists and that comprises electrons neurotransmitters and various other chemicals sloshing around in the brain? Which means that anything it is possible to dream up exists in the material world in the form of said electro chemical soup? Does that allow for quantum effects?

So the omnipotent omniscient ever present God, creator and annihilator of all things is just an idea. I think I can buy that.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 08:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Religio = religion.


We learnt it differently in Latin classes.


Take it up with Merriam-Webster please.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 08:04 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

To say that 'there is not a shred of evidence that a god exists' flies in the face of hundreds of millions (conservative estimate) who testify that they have experienced God by whatever name....

Give one single shred of evidence for the existence of God other than a claim of personal inner experiences which no one can verify. If indeed there is a God who created the world, then there ought to be some evidence of it. I'm not going to accept, "because I say so," as evidence of the origins of the universe.


Give one shred of evidence for dreams in color. Give one shred of evidence that a thought originated in your own head and you are not parroting what somebody else told you to say. Give one shred of evidence that you saw your shadow when you went outside into the sun yesterday. Because you say so is sufficient proof for you. It is not provable to anybody else.

With such a plethora of unprovable things, why is only God non existent because you (rhetorical you) cannot prove that God exists?
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 08:23 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

As there are no societies without religion in some form ( a set of unprovable beliefs which work) it is reasonable to assume that evolutionary forces have deselected your position and that you hold to such a position due to lack of education and your being a cantankerous old curmudgeon who looks for easy piss-taking opportunities and think you having found one here.
Hey I missed this bit Smile It seems perfectly obvious to me that early settled societies dreamed up their own gods. If you've only just given up huntin an gathrin', have now planted the corn and are watching it grow, you realise without enough water you're going to starve. So how do you make it rain? Make the rain god happy. Do a dance or sacrifice a bullock. Its not rocket science. There were just about as many gods as there were tribes around with vivid imaginations. It doesnt mean they actually existed! A bit of rationalisation and job sharing and you end up with just a few like the Greek and Roman gods. Enter monotheism and Constantine...

btw I'm not looking for easy piss-takes, though as the military say, its a target rich environment.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 08:25 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Atheists deny the existence of God and use lack of tangible proof as sufficient justification for their convictions when they are perfectly willing to believe in many other things which they have never experienced or seen just because others testify that such things exist.

Almost makes a case for there being a Satan at work in the world, doesn't it. (That's not a statement. Just a thought.
I've never claimed to be an atheist, and I've never said there is no God I'm just being honest when I say "I dont know". No-one knows. No-one can know. And that includes the theists who imo are either delusional or dishonest when they claim direct knowledge of God.

Good post spendy, I was flagging a bit with the materialistic theory of mind until all became clear with lingerie. So God exists because the idea of God exists and that comprises electrons neurotransmitters and various other chemicals sloshing around in the brain? Which means that anything it is possible to dream up exists in the material world in the form of said electro chemical soup? Does that allow for quantum effects?

So the omnipotent omniscient ever present God, creator and annihilator of all things is just an idea. I think I can buy that.


I have not nor would I presume to tell you what you do or do not believe or what you have or have not experienced.

I have no question of the existence of God, however, as I have experienced God, and I am absolutely certain that God is much much more than simply an idea. Many if not most of those who do not want to believe in the existence of God will call my testimony as well as the testimony of many hundreds of millions of others a lie or they will try to explain it away as mass delusion or whatever.

But, just as you have done here, they will come up with all manner of theories and speculations to justify believing in other things that one person cannot prove to another. Certainly in matters other than God, the personal testimony of dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, hundreds of millions of people all reporting awhat they are experiencing or have experienced certainly gives credence to such an experience being valid even if the researcher has not himself/herself experienced what they are reporting. Looking at it that way, it seems far more irrational to state there is no evidence for the existence of God than to a least leave open the possibility that God exists.

And if I needed further proof or evidence for myself, I would look at the very angst and frenetic agitation and something akin to fear demonstrated by the Atheists of the world. Why do not other unprovable things stir such powerful emotions in them as does a concept of God? Why do they seem so desperate to disprove that God is? It is a puzzlement. And I personally find it fascinating.

(I also know that anybody will experience God if they give him permission to reveal himself without any preconditions but that is a topic for another discussion.)

Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 08:57 am
@Foxfyre,
All I claim is that I dont know. That's the natural default position of all human studies before we begin the process of finding out. All human studies except one of course that being Divinity where absolute unverifiable and often conflicting conclusions are presented without discussion or argument. I often think that if there is a God, he must have a particularly dark sense of humour, presenting himself to three individuals as being uniquely chosen, then departing the scene and letting them fight over it.

One last point. Consider this. If the Universe is all that exists, and God exists then God is part of the Universe. If God created the Universe how did he create himself as part of it? Or alternatively who created God? If God is not part of the Universe of all things that exists, he does not by definition exist.

Apologies if I've already posted that on this thread.



0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 09:35 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

To say that 'there is not a shred of evidence that a god exists' flies in the face of hundreds of millions (conservative estimate) who testify that they have experienced God by whatever name....

Give one single shred of evidence for the existence of God other than a claim of personal inner experiences which no one can verify. If indeed there is a God who created the world, then there ought to be some evidence of it. I'm not going to accept, "because I say so," as evidence of the origins of the universe.


Give one shred of evidence for dreams in color. Give one shred of evidence that a thought originated in your own head and you are not parroting what somebody else told you to say. Give one shred of evidence that you saw your shadow when you went outside into the sun yesterday. Because you say so is sufficient proof for you. It is not provable to anybody else.

With such a plethora of unprovable things, why is only God non existent because you (rhetorical you) cannot prove that God exists?

It's a bad analogy, because in the examples you give, other people are trying to reach conclusions about my personal experience, but in the example under discussion, we are trying to reach a conclusion about the origin and nature of the universe.

I didn't say that God doesn't exist. I said that there is no evidence that he exists, and that, in the absence of any evidence, it is illogical to conclude that such a specific assertion about the universe is true. If I told you that I had a devine revelation that there are actually 5 Gods, named Joe, Stan, Winston, Harvey, and Elisa who created the universe, and other very specific facts which had been revealed to me about things that they'd done, it would be highly illogical for you to accept my personal statement about my revelation as being reliable information about the nature of the universe.

The effort to determine the history and workings of the universe must be based on evidence and deduction, and there are no observations I know about which would suggest that your theory is the correct one.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 10:02 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Take it up with Merriam-Webster please.


Infortunately, there' no Merriam-Webster Latin-English or Latin-any-other-language online. I don't own one either, but only used my own Latin-Latin resp. Latin-German dictionaries resp. what I remember from Latin classes at school.

My M-W Unabriged isn't really any help for Latin. Nor the online version.

(I've got the 'Great Latinum' exams ["Latin proficiency certificate"] , which is necessary for majoring in theology and Latin studies - the 'little' for medicine, law and history.)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 11:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Major Major Heller
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 12:52 pm
This may support the one or other view on the subject Wink

From today's evening paper (Evening Standard, 21.09.08, West End Final, page 8)

http://i36.tinypic.com/dcx3jt.jpg
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 01:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,

Nice one Walter, and Mr Dawkins.

People still give offerings to the Water God when they throw coins into "wishing wells"- actually they will throw coins into ornamental ponds almost anywhere.

So it looks like this "there is a God, I know there is because I believe it" hokum is going to be around for a few millennia yet, should we last that long.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 01:15 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:

People still give offerings to the Water God when they throw coins into "wishing wells"- actually they will throw coins into ornamental ponds almost anywhere.


It's money for the Naiad nymphs. And some really experienced the result doing so, as shown here by Mr. Waterhouse:

http://i34.tinypic.com/ngc653.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 01:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
It's a bad analogy, because in the examples you give, other people are trying to reach conclusions about my personal experience, but in the example under discussion, we are trying to reach a conclusion about the origin and nature of the universe.


But you see, I have no problem with your conclusion about the origin and nature of the universe. I have no problem with the big bang theory and I have no problem with evolution or any other scientific theories. These may or may not turn out to be the way they are currently believed to be, but I don't have any problem with the concepts in themselves. But it is the God whom I have experienced that makes me able to believe that it was him who formed the matter of which the universe is made. Do you have a better theory about where all the stuff that makes up the universe came from?

And it is the God whom I have experienced who would have formed the components of the universe in such a way that a 'big bang' would occur. He lit the fuse so to speak. Do you have a better theory about how all that came to pass?

And since such things are easy for me to believe due to that of God which he has allowed me to experience, I don't have any problem whatsoever in seeing Evolution coexisting peacefully side by side or within a larger concept of intelligent design.

For me there is no conflict between God and science for I am confident that God is the author of all that we understand as science.

I also think that all of us are going to be really surprised about some of this stuff when we are privy to know how it all came about.

The analogy I used was purely to illustrate that there is much that we all believe that we cannot prove to anybody else. We have all experienced all kinds of things that we cannot prove to anybody else that we have experienced them.

I do find it rather remarkable that out of all those things that we have experienced but cannot prove that we have experienced, it is usually mostly the professed experience of God that some go way out of their way to dispute or discredit. I have long concluded that the reason for that is that a concept of God is terrifying to some who have never experienced Him.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 04:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I have long concluded that the reason for that is that a concept of God is terrifying to some who have never experienced Him.


I am racking my brains to think which literary tyro would have laughed loudest at that sentence Foxy. Flaubert probably.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 11:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,

Englischunterrichten? Beeindruckend.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 02:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you have a better theory about where all the stuff that makes up the universe came from?
Yes. Quantum gravity.

either that or

Quote:
According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally man.


At least the Boshongo had a theory. You propose nothing except "I dont understand therefore God did it".



Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 04:07 am
@Steve 41oo,



Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally man.



That is of course fiction.

But when you look at websites, in books, read what people have experienced and ask those who follow this religion ...

In the beginning there was nothing but Ginnungagap, a void charged with magic force. Three gods, Odin and his brothers, raised up the earth from the sea into which it will ultimately sink back. The sun shone on the barren rocks and the earth was overgrown with green herbage. ... ...

Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 04:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally man.



That is of course fiction...
Smile



0 Replies
 
 

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