JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I just heard that on CNN too.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:38 pm
@JPB,
Do you mean that rock of truth and integrity I have heard such glowing reports of?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:39 pm
@JPB,
Love your signature JP.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:40 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Our Prime Minister would now resign and there would be an election within four weeks.


I suppose that such would happen in most if not all countries. (Happens in Italy any couple of months. Wink )
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
And only the politicised intellectuals ever notice.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:43 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, Bush doesn't have the guts to resign. In his mind, he's doing a good job
FOR the American people. Ignorance is bliss.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:44 pm
@CalamityJane,
Bush thinks he's doing a good job, because the people that surrounds him are "yes" people.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:47 pm
@spendius,
Just saw this, speni -- I'm not saying that folks HERE aren't spelling it out but that Americans in general are getting chicken little reports that they can't wrap their heads around. I know WE get it. I also know that lots and lots of folks don't. And -- they're about to vote in a new Congress in November.

re my sigline -- thanks.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I heard they just said "No!" to his early morning pleadings.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:52 pm
I watched the crowd behind Ms Pelosi and none of them had out of the ordinary eye-blink rates which suggests they are not very nervous.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:52 pm
@spendius,
never been so proud to be a marxist-lenninist.

what is to be done?

this is the spark
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:54 pm
@spendius,
nervous?

the people demand tanks on the streets of Wall and London
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:57 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Then you would see them blinking like a tawny owl with a red hot poker up its arse.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:41 pm
More along the lines of where I am coming from:
Quote:
Beg, Borrow, or Steal
Why the bailout is a terrible idea

Steve Chapman | September 29, 2008
Sometimes bipartisanship is grounds for celebration, but more often it is cause for tears. Last week, congressional leaders from both parties went into a room to hammer out a plan that would put taxpayers on the hook for $700 billion. But they assert that the investment is essential to the health of the economy. And they insist that if we make this investment, we'll get all or most of it back.

This promise would be more believable if the federal government had a long record of using tax dollars responsibly. In fact, it's the equivalent of the guy who raids his kid's piggy bank to feed the slots. The most notable impulse of our leaders is spending money the Treasury doesn't have, piling up bills that future Americans will have to cover.

How do our leaders intend to pay for this massive new outlay? Not by raising taxes. Not by cutting spending in other parts of the budget. No, they will borrow the funds. The Chinese and other foreign investors will lend us money so we can keep the economy humming, which will allow us to make the payments on the money we already owe them.

Unfortunately, this deceptively pleasant process can go on only so long. Today the federal government wants to bail out an industry that can't meet its obligations. But it increases the chance that the next time, it will be the federal government that teeters on the brink of financial doom.

The $700 billion comes on top of $85 billion it is lending to save the insurance company AIG. It's in addition to the $200 billion it put up for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. There may be more on the way.

Add it all up and you find that our government has suddenly run up a trillion dollars in new liabilities. That sounds like a lot"unless you compare it with Washington's other outstanding commitments. Currently, the national debt stands at roughly $10 trillion, which is about three-quarters as large as our entire annual gross domestic product. But The Concord Coalition, a Washington-based fiscal watchdog group, says explicit and implicit obligations amount to $53 trillion""almost as much as today's net worth of all household assets."

Hear that? Everything you own is already spoken for.

With each year, government spending rises, and the budget deficit gets bigger. As the baby boom generation retires, the gap will grow. Given current trends, federal outlays stand to double between now and 2050, while revenues remain roughly stable.

By then, two programs"Medicare and Medicaid"will cost as much as the entire federal budget does today. Which means that, essentially, we'll be financing two federal governments. If you dislike carrying a defensive end on your back, wait till his twin climbs aboard.

Even the government admits this can't go on forever. A report from the Treasury Department says that without big increases in revenue, "Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security spending and the related deficit financing costs will far exceed the government's ability to pay."

When you spend more than you bring in, you have to borrow to cover the difference. In the next three decades, the government's official debt is on track to triple. But at some point, the Treasury predicts, "the world's financial markets would likely cease lending to the United States."

Then what? David Henderson, a research fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution and editor of The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics, ticks off the options: We could close the budget gap by drastically cutting spending or raising taxes. The Federal Reserve could print a lot of money, reducing the real value of the debt and making it easier to pay off. Or the government could default"in short, declare bankruptcy.

It may sound absurd to think the United States government would ever walk away from its debts. But if we are not willing to make painful sacrifices now, why would we be willing to make excruciating ones then? Inflation, says Henderson, is also unappealing because it would cause such pain here at home. Default would be more attractive to some Americans because we not only would escape our debt but also "would be screwing foreigners."

Once they have rescued the financial sector, maybe Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke can answer the question that will eventually follow from this and other commitments: Who will rescue the federal government?

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129093.html
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:05 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

More along the lines of where I am coming from:
Quote:
Beg, Borrow, or Steal
Why the bailout is a terrible idea

Steve Chapman | September 29, 2008
Sometimes bipartisanship is grounds for celebration, but more often it is cause for tears. Last week, congressional leaders from both parties went into a room to hammer out a plan that would put taxpayers on the hook for $700 billion. But they assert that the investment is essential to the health of the economy. And they insist that if we make this investment, we'll get all or most of it back.

This promise would be more believable if the federal government had a long record of using tax dollars responsibly. In fact, it's the equivalent of the guy who raids his kid's piggy bank to feed the slots. The most notable impulse of our leaders is spending money the Treasury doesn't have, piling up bills that future Americans will have to cover.

How do our leaders intend to pay for this massive new outlay? Not by raising taxes. Not by cutting spending in other parts of the budget. No, they will borrow the funds. The Chinese and other foreign investors will lend us money so we can keep the economy humming, which will allow us to make the payments on the money we already owe them.

Unfortunately, this deceptively pleasant process can go on only so long. Today the federal government wants to bail out an industry that can't meet its obligations. But it increases the chance that the next time, it will be the federal government that teeters on the brink of financial doom.

The $700 billion comes on top of $85 billion it is lending to save the insurance company AIG. It's in addition to the $200 billion it put up for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. There may be more on the way.

Add it all up and you find that our government has suddenly run up a trillion dollars in new liabilities. That sounds like a lot"unless you compare it with Washington's other outstanding commitments. Currently, the national debt stands at roughly $10 trillion, which is about three-quarters as large as our entire annual gross domestic product. But The Concord Coalition, a Washington-based fiscal watchdog group, says explicit and implicit obligations amount to $53 trillion""almost as much as today's net worth of all household assets."

Hear that? Everything you own is already spoken for.

With each year, government spending rises, and the budget deficit gets bigger. As the baby boom generation retires, the gap will grow. Given current trends, federal outlays stand to double between now and 2050, while revenues remain roughly stable.

By then, two programs"Medicare and Medicaid"will cost as much as the entire federal budget does today. Which means that, essentially, we'll be financing two federal governments. If you dislike carrying a defensive end on your back, wait till his twin climbs aboard.

Even the government admits this can't go on forever. A report from the Treasury Department says that without big increases in revenue, "Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security spending and the related deficit financing costs will far exceed the government's ability to pay."

When you spend more than you bring in, you have to borrow to cover the difference. In the next three decades, the government's official debt is on track to triple. But at some point, the Treasury predicts, "the world's financial markets would likely cease lending to the United States."

Then what? David Henderson, a research fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution and editor of The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics, ticks off the options: We could close the budget gap by drastically cutting spending or raising taxes. The Federal Reserve could print a lot of money, reducing the real value of the debt and making it easier to pay off. Or the government could default"in short, declare bankruptcy.

It may sound absurd to think the United States government would ever walk away from its debts. But if we are not willing to make painful sacrifices now, why would we be willing to make excruciating ones then? Inflation, says Henderson, is also unappealing because it would cause such pain here at home. Default would be more attractive to some Americans because we not only would escape our debt but also "would be screwing foreigners."

Once they have rescued the financial sector, maybe Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke can answer the question that will eventually follow from this and other commitments: Who will rescue the federal government?

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129093.html
Excellent work. Please read.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:24 pm
I'm (mostly) not posting on the financial crisis threads since finance is an area I'm not well read on, nor an area I've worked in. My few experiences with investment were unfortunate, merrill lynch mediated, around the time the market was whirling around 1000. (Lots of talk about gold then too.)

I won't catch up, but I'm reading now about various pros and cons.

From my own already admitted economic ignorant pov, what is the problem with spending 700 billion on this situation when our debt is (last I looked) around 11.7 trillion? Or maybe debt isn't the right word for that number.

I get some of the pro and cons, mostly pro some kind of bailout, also some cons - but - not to point fingers at reasonable defense, doesn't our war machine eat much much more?

I also get rage against the mortgage lenders/traders and somewhat against the speculating buyers. I feel for the small buyer with no clue, mostly. Baitfish.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:35 pm
@ossobuco,
The pro actually comes from providing liquidity to the banks to provide consumers and businesses with loans that are needed to survive this downturn.

Many small business need that cash to meet payroll, and many families need the continuation of credit to pay for their necessities from paycheck to paycheck.

The need for $700 billion immediately is not the issue, but quick cash for liquidity.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:05 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I get some of the pro and cons, mostly pro some kind of bailout, also some cons - but - not to point fingers at reasonable defense, doesn't our war machine eat much much more?
Nope. Not even that. War spending since 9-11 has yet to reach 700 Billion in 7 years. This bill would spend that in less than 2 years. It remains work that needs to be done, however, because otherwise banks will have next to no money to lend. Too much of our economy depends on credit, to quit cold turkey. 700 Billion, wouldn't solve the problem that created it. It would buy us time to solve them without crashing our entire economy first. There are many very legitimate concerns about the bailout, but all are secondary to getting something done as quick as possible. Everyone who voted against this far from perfect bill should be held accountable on Election Day.

Boehner’s BS about Nancy Pelosi's idiotic partisan pontificating provides no excuse. She deserves to be blasted for running her mouth at such an idiotic time; but that is insufficient reasoning for cannonballing such a crucial measure. People will lose jobs, homes, and businesses as a direct result of this hyper partisan bickering. The self-serving idiots who voted against the best interests of the American people are guiltier than the self-aggrandizing idiot (Pelosi) who may or may not have goaded them into it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:50 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
My teachers were all agreed that if there's trouble there's a woman behind it so if there's big trouble it's likely there's a big woman involved.
And, as Schopenauer said, a lot of ordinary women have to suffer for one to be big. Women's rights are nowhere with Nancy.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:21 pm
Heres an interesting article AND video about the problem with Fannie and Freddie.

Watch the video and pay attention to what the dems are saying.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/29/video-democrats-insist-nothing-wrong-at-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2004/
 

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