spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 03:32 pm
@Linkat,
The ones you will vote for being the elite I suppose. How nice.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 04:09 pm
@spendius,
You know those maps they do showing the red and blue states. Can anybody do one showing red for voting No and blue for voting yes on the bailout bill.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:31 pm
@parados,
What do you know, Parados, I found a Democrat that has admitted they were wrong. Watch the video. Confessions heal the soul, Parados, try it.

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html

Click on the "We were wrong video."
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:34 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

So the fact that Dodd and Frank are on record at the time as saying these entities were fine and dandy doesn't matter, is that right, and the Democrats are never responsible for anything at all. The Dems had no influence at all over this legislation and never opposed it, right Parados?
I never said that. I pointed out that the GOP controlled both houses and there was no evidence that Dodd stopped the legislation. If you think they are responsible then present some actual evidence other than a sportscaster and weatherman letting someone spout his drivel without questioning it when I can easily point out a factual error in what was said.

Quote:
It is always the evil Bush people and the Republicans, and evil greedy loan companies that simply wanted to go broke. I get it, Parados. Have it your way.
I never said that either. But it seems rather then present any evidence you want to build a straw man.

Quote:
Yes, HUD, Fannie Mae and Freddie, and the congressional oversight were running things great, I am sure the people that ran Fannie Mae, cooking the books, and the legislation mandating political correctness and subprime loans and all of that are only a figment of everybody's imagination. I apologize, Parados for being so worried about what happened.
I don't think you need to apologize to me for your acting like an idiot. You might want to just stop acting like one and provide some evidence instead of building a strawman.

Quote:

Funny how Enron was raked over the coals and people ended up in prison? How come something like that isn't happening here?
Could be because people at Enron committed fraud by creating sham entities to siphon off profits.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:44 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

What do you know, Parados, I found a Democrat that has admitted they were wrong. Watch the video. Confessions heal the soul, Parados, try it.

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html

Click on the "We were wrong video."

Sure, there is blame for both sides.

But this video doesn't provide any evidence that Dodd blocked the 2005 legislation. You are the one laying blame without any evidence to support it. I asked for evidence and you instead came up with a strawman. This video only points out that blame is on both sides and it is. So let's provide evidence if you are going to blame one side. Claiming someone blocked legislation would mean you should provide some evidence. When the GOP didn't even get the legislation out of committee you can't accuse the Dems of filibustering it. That is utter nonsense. You can't filibuster a bill that isn't in front of the entire Senate.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:47 pm
@parados,
As many times as McCain supported and pushed for deregulation during his 26 years in congress, it's a wonder that those conservatives on these boards can't see the obvious.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 10:40 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
When the GOP didn't even get the legislation out of committee you can't accuse the Dems of filibustering it. That is utter nonsense. You can't filibuster a bill that isn't in front of the entire Senate.

You can threaten filibuster and put a chill on any progress, parados. That is what I have been reading, and there is plenty of evidence the Democrats were grandstanding and accusing Republicans of trying to fix something that did not need fixing, and trying to hijack the oversight away from their pet bureaucracies. Hints of racism was being injected into the debate I think, and nothing can throw cold water on anything like screams of racism. Pathetic, but that is what is routinely done in Washington. Interesting, ACORN was involved in this issue, and Obama was involved with ACORN. My curiosity is greatly interested in more details about this likely game of scamming as well. Community organizer, yes, probably community scam artist. Just a suspicion, Parados.

Given the mix of bills moving forward, the chill placed on this reform just stalled it out, regardless if it came to a vote or not, or whether it stalled in committee. Republicans should have done more, but cripes look at who was screaming the loudest and in total denial in regard to the issue. It was Democrats, and there are enough videos and evidence to prove it. If a bill seems doomed to failure, I would guess it is likely it just loses any momentum to move forward, whether it is still in committee or if it eventually comes to a vote. Even when the Republicans were in majority, there were not enough conservative ones to have the numbers on alot of stuff.

I am an average citizen in fly over country trying to decipher all of this with common sense. Even if I sit here and spend 8 hours per day researching this, how am I going to find out exactly what happened years ago. All I can do is read and absorb what is out there, and make judgements about it. What went on inside those committees and subcommittees, that is tough to know, exactly what was said, but what we do have are plenty of information including video that Democrats were staunchly opposing it. Just how it was killed, perhaps McCain can shed some light on some of that in upcoming debates, speeches, and ads. It is going to a be a war of words, and it is up to us to separate fact from fiction. And I am sure that you, Parados, will continue to obfuscate any blame away from your Democrats. Makes me wonder if you are part of the mess back there?
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 10:30 am
@spendius,
Yes I am superior in that way.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 10:41 am
Have you seen what Putin has said? Irresponsible!! Inadequate decision making !! Cripes!!

No wonder Mr Bush looked angry yesterday. And he sure did.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 10:52 am
My thoughts exactly ---

Quote:
But their biggest mistake was a lack of specificity. They never clearly told the American people what might happen if Congress did not act. "If you want people to support an action," says Dennis Mileti, an expert on risk communications who has studied hundreds of disasters of the more conventional kind at the University of Colorado, Boulder, "you need to link the action to cutting people's losses. And that link isn't in place."

Here is what Administration and congressional leaders must do if they want to convince the public to get behind the next iteration of the plan - assuming, of course, that they come up with a plan worth backing:

Find a Face Human beings are not moved by numbers or vague predictions of certain doom. They are moved by stories. "It's simple," says Mileti. "You get one family in America. You go to their house. And you paint a picture of what their life is like one year from now. You describe a kid who can't go to college, the house that can't be sold, the inability of anyone to use a credit card. They need to get a camera crew and go to Omaha and find a family."

Rebrand the Bill The word bailout is a deal killer. "People feel the breaks are being given to financial institutions and not to the consumer," says Slovic. He recommends calling it a Consumer Protection Act. It may be too late for this change to have much impact, but any change in language that acknowledges real people would be an improvement.

Shoot the Messenger If you want people to support the radical idea of rescuing rich investment bankers, don't send a rich, former investment banker (Henry Paulson) to convince them. And don't send a discredited, lame-duck President, either. As in normal life, people are more likely to believe the advice of someone they trust. There aren't many well-known experts in this field who aren't rich, but even Warren Buffet would have brought less baggage to the process than Bush.

Be Specific People need to know what will happen if they do nothing - or if they do something.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081001/us_time/whyarentamericansbuyingthebailout
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 11:15 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

parados wrote:
When the GOP didn't even get the legislation out of committee you can't accuse the Dems of filibustering it. That is utter nonsense. You can't filibuster a bill that isn't in front of the entire Senate.

You can threaten filibuster and put a chill on any progress, parados.
Sure, you can but I have seen nothing that says they did that.
Quote:

That is what I have been reading, and there is plenty of evidence the Democrats were grandstanding and accusing Republicans of trying to fix something that did not need fixing, and trying to hijack the oversight away from their pet bureaucracies.
Oh.. so then you can provide that plenty of evidence from the time period in the Senate? I await your evidence from that time period other than stories written in the last month. Surely there must be some record of Dodd threatening a filibuster if the GOP was at all serious at that time. I find it hard to believe that the GOP was the majority at the time and hell bent on passage but never held a single news conference on the bill being blocked in the Senate. When you can provide that evidence then you can say you have Some evidence. You certainly don't have plenty.
Quote:

Hints of racism was being injected into the debate I think, and nothing can throw cold water on anything like screams of racism. Pathetic, but that is what is routinely done in Washington. Interesting, ACORN was involved in this issue, and Obama was involved with ACORN. My curiosity is greatly interested in more details about this likely game of scamming as well. Community organizer, yes, probably community scam artist. Just a suspicion, Parados.
Suspicions without plenty of evidence. That is all you have presented.
Quote:

Given the mix of bills moving forward, the chill placed on this reform just stalled it out, regardless if it came to a vote or not, or whether it stalled in committee. Republicans should have done more, but cripes look at who was screaming the loudest and in total denial in regard to the issue. It was Democrats, and there are enough videos and evidence to prove it.
The bill PASSED in the house which is where all the evidence you have is from. Evidence of screaming where the bill passed isn't evidence that the Dems blocked it since we know the bill was passed there.
Quote:
If a bill seems doomed to failure, I would guess it is likely it just loses any momentum to move forward, whether it is still in committee or if it eventually comes to a vote. Even when the Republicans were in majority, there were not enough conservative ones to have the numbers on alot of stuff.
Oh.. but it was the Dems fault alone even though the GOP was in the majority? Do you bother to listen to your arguments?
Quote:

I am an average citizen in fly over country trying to decipher all of this with common sense. Even if I sit here and spend 8 hours per day researching this, how am I going to find out exactly what happened years ago.
I see, so rather than research what exactly happened you feel "common sense" says you can just make stuff up without evidence. I consider that stupidity and not common sense.
Quote:
All I can do is read and absorb what is out there, and make judgements about it. What went on inside those committees and subcommittees, that is tough to know, exactly what was said,
Actually it isn't tough to know, there is a thing called the Congressional Record that can tell you what went on in the committees. It just doesn't keep a record of every word spoken.
Quote:
but what we do have are plenty of information including video that Democrats were staunchly opposing it.
Of House members where the bill passed.
Quote:
Just how it was killed, perhaps McCain can shed some light on some of that in upcoming debates, speeches, and ads. It is going to a be a war of words, and it is up to us to separate fact from fiction. And I am sure that you, Parados, will continue to obfuscate any blame away from your Democrats. Makes me wonder if you are part of the mess back there?
If you want to separate fact from fiction then stop promoting things as true when you have no evidence. One thing for certain, you are part of the mess today when you use partisanship to promote the other side did it. There is no evidence that the Dems killed the bill in the Senate. You can't use speeches from the House to say the Senate did anything. That is just outright silliness.

Things we know for certain.
1. The bill was passed in the House.
2. The GOP was the majority in the Senate at the time
3. The Bill was sent to a GOP controlled committee and died there.

Anything above and beyond that is speculation on your part.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 12:13 pm
Why are you so shy of providing a geographical picture of the vote. It's all very well saying that representatives were bombarded with phone and e-mails from their constituents to vote against with 5 weeks to go before the election but which representatives.

I'm betting that those who use the term "flyover states" derisively correlated with a Yes vote and the states insulted with a No vote.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 01:16 pm
@spendius,
Most state delegations where split on the vote. It wasn't even a party line vote let alone a state vote.

If you want a map then get a map and color it all purple.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 01:20 pm
@parados,
But it was a fairly close vote. And, in such a case, "most" is not good enough.

I also understood that it was a party line vote. Both party lines were for Yes. Is that not correct?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 01:24 pm
@spendius,
I have a small artistic temperment and I'm doing shades of purple. It was always going to be some shade of purple. (*** ***** ****).
0 Replies
 
 

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