Steve 41oo
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 11:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
the title is let it crash
its crashing

time for revolution
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 11:49 am
@Steve 41oo,
Bailout fails.

Stock market instantly falls 700 points

Wow

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:23 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Why are we (they) using general terms like "dire warnings of impending economic doom" and "Heaven help us". Spell it out, dammit!


I spelled it out JP. Lehman went down when they hadn't the cash for the week's wages. If that happened nationally, and a lot of employers are paying the wages with borrowings, that would be that. The juice would be off.

There are two types of borrowing. One for investment by usually experienced business people, and the other by the types of people Ocean Finance (and others) showed in their long running ads looking pleased at having Ocean give them a loan. Our adult comic Viz was scoffing at those people two years ago. They were keeping their readers up-to-date. Where were the "financial experts" they are still wheeling on? In the wine bars and on the yachts of the very people they were being paid to keep an eye on is where.

Media is untrustworthy.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Stock market instantly falls 700 points


Cripes!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:37 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Seems like FreeDuck is getting her will -- things are crashing.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:40 pm
@Thomas,
CNN just said that "many voting against the plan" wanted to vote their conscience and vote yes but felt their constituency wanted them to vote no.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:40 pm
@Thomas,
Stabilized a bit at -500 on the day.

S&P and Nasdaq are both off 6.5% as well.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I once wrote the first line of a silly song.

I'm yo-yoing up and down like a yo-yo yoing.

The rest of the first verse was even sillier so I gave it up. It's a long time ago though.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:56 pm
@Thomas,
I'm not exactly thrilled about it.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:02 pm
@FreeDuck,
Take A Deep Breath: Some Perspective On The Financial Crisis


Some quotes:

Quote:
But, the basic summary is that a chain of events all resulted in more and more money being put into riskier and riskier mortgages, where much of the risk was hidden away by computer models and the repackaging of those risky mortgages in bulk. Normally speaking, the idea of bundling up a bunch of risky projects into one actually does make some sense -- because you're figuring that while some will fail, the successes will greatly outweigh the failures. And, in many cases, that's true (it's basic diversification). But the problem was that very few, if any, of the models seemed to take into account the fact that these weren't independently risky items, but that many were very dependent on each other. Thus, rather than a small group of risky deals going south, outweighed by the success stories, people started to realize that you could have a domino effect, where a large portion of the risky stuff going bad could actually lead to even more of it going bad. That's just what you get for creating bad models that don't take dependencies into account.

...

Then, once stuff started to go bad, the dependencies started to snowball and make everything worse -- and the confusion over how bad and how risky things were made those who actually had money on hand reasonably afraid to keep lending it to those who couldn't accurately express the risk. That resulted in a lack of liquidity -- effectively the oil in the economy's engine. Without liquidity, a lot of stuff freezes up pretty quickly and dangerously. That's what caused Treasury boss Paulson and Fed chair Bernanke to ask for the "bailout" plan.


Quote:
So, the good news is that there's a chance that the "splurge" could result in a best case scenario: it pumps liquidity into the market, stabilizes things, gets the economy moving again and lets the government profit.

But that's the best case scenario. Others are a lot less sure, noting that the upside pales compared to the downside risk, and even if an upside scenario may seem a lot more likely, the cost of the downside is much, much bigger (at least $700 billion at this point, and perhaps more). In fact, there are those who suggest that a poorly done splurge will almost certainly make things even worse....


Quote:
There's a common refrain among many, many people, that this is just the result of greedy Wall Street bankers, and the proper thing to do here is to just let them all fail. It's not that easy. The ripple effects here would be pretty serious -- and while I don't think the economy would fully seize up, it would be really painful across the board. The lack of liquidity in the commercial paper world (short term lending, mostly) would impact a lot of businesses that you might not think have such exposure to Wall Street. And that, in turn, could create an ongoing spiral.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:04 pm
@DrewDad,
Money chasing assets without much value will not help our economy; what America needs are jobs.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, do tell, ci. Drill, drill, drill.

Washington has been run by a band of idiots, most notably alot of them in Congress.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:07 pm
Our Prime Minister would now resign and there would be an election within four weeks. You have a lame duck President.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:08 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Quote:
So, the good news is that there's a chance that the "splurge" could result in a best case scenario: it pumps liquidity into the market, stabilizes things, gets the economy moving again and lets the government profit.

But that's the best case scenario. Others are a lot less sure, noting that the upside pales compared to the downside risk, and even if an upside scenario may seem a lot more likely, the cost of the downside is much, much bigger (at least $700 billion at this point, and perhaps more). In fact, there are those who suggest that a poorly done splurge will almost certainly make things even worse....



The part I bolded is pretty much where I'm coming from. I know that a lot of people assume that what I'm talking about is letting it crash to punish greedy wall street -- that's not it at all. Let me also add to Thomas that I don't "will" it to crash. But if the choice is between throwing more debt at it (where will that 700 billion come from, anyway?) for no improvement or worse (it bites us in the ass harder but later) and doing nothing then I advocate doing nothing. If we can get something done that looks like it will help, permanently, then I am all for it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:11 pm
@okie,
And where have you seen me disagree with that?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
what America needs are jobs.


What can possibly be sillier and more irresponsible than telling us that, which we might all agree on, without the botheration of telling us how to get there.

You are one silly ass c.i. and you must be very tiresome at close range. Flying 6,000 miles to meet you is about as daft a bloody thing anybody could contemplate.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:17 pm
So the House voted down the package. They were on board the "let it crash" train. I can't see how this is a positive. Anything you read about the Great Depression will point out that government could have taken positive steps to mitigate the disaster if they would have been willing to act early. If the world economy tanks, it's not going to go over well for all the little guys out there.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:20 pm
@engineer,
I think it will pass right after the election. If people, in general, don't understand the downside and they get to vote for someone in a few weeks who they think has just sold the farm then those voting yes for the bailout don't get to keep their jobs in Washington.

They want to get reelected so they're voting accordingly. Then, once they come back, they can vote in a package and have 2 (or 6) years to make it work.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:21 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
So the House voted down the package. They were on board the "let it crash" train. I can't see how this is a positive. Anything you read about the Great Depression will point out that government could have taken positive steps to mitigate the disaster if they would have been willing to act early. If the world economy tanks, it's not going to go over well for all the little guys out there.


agreed engineer, small consolation though about the house republicans being the ones who will get blame when the banks start shutting down. How could they do this?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:23 pm
@JPB,
Barney Franks was saying that the republicans got sensitive because of what Pelosi said, and they're feelings were hurt so that's how they voted rather than think the damage to our country. True?
 

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