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France, enemy of the US

 
 
au1929
 
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:47 am
Our War With France

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy.
If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq's transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided U.N. than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq.
France wants America to sink in a quagmire there in the crazy hope that a weakened U.S. will pave the way for France to assume its "rightful" place as America's equal, if not superior, in shaping world affairs.
Yes, the Bush team's arrogance has sharpened French hostility. Had President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld not been so full of themselves right after America's military victory in Iraq — and instead used that moment, when the French were feeling that maybe they should have taken part, to magnanimously reach out to Paris to join in reconstruction — it might have softened French attitudes. But even that I have doubts about.
What I have no doubts about, though, is that there is no coherent, legitimate Iraqi authority able to assume power in the near term, and trying to force one now would lead to a dangerous internal struggle and delay the building of the democratic institutions Iraq so badly needs. Iraqis know this. France knows this, which is why its original proposal (which it now seems to be backtracking on a bit) could only be malicious.
What is so amazing to me about the French campaign — "Operation America Must Fail" — is that France seems to have given no thought as to how this would affect France. Let me spell it out in simple English: if America is defeated in Iraq by a coalition of Saddamists and Islamists, radical Muslim groups — from Baghdad to the Muslim slums of Paris — will all be energized, and the forces of modernism and tolerance within these Muslim communities will be on the run. To think that France, with its large Muslim minority, where radicals are already gaining strength, would not see its own social fabric affected by this is fanciful.
If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we're sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution.
But then France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world, which is why its pose as the new protector of Iraqi representative government — after being so content with Saddam's one-man rule — is so patently cynical.
Clearly, not all E.U. countries are comfortable with this French mischief, yet many are going along for the ride. It's stunning to me that the E.U., misled by France, could let itself be written out of the most important political development project in modern Middle East history. The whole tone and direction of the Arab-Muslim world, which is right on Europe's doorstep, will be affected by the outcome in Iraq. It would be as if America said it did not care what happened in Mexico because it was mad at Spain.
Says John Chipman, director of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies: "What the Europeans are saying about Iraq is that this is our backyard, we're not going to let you meddle in it, but we're not going to tend it ourselves."
But what's most sad is that France is right — America will not be as effective or legitimate in its efforts to rebuild Iraq without French help. Having France working with us in Iraq, rather than against us in the world, would be so beneficial for both nations and for the Arabs' future. Too bad this French government has other priorities.

Has France replaced the Soviet Union as our cold war adversary?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,631 • Replies: 29
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:57 am
Sounds like we're trying to push France around too, eh.
Let's see, that would require us to talk sh!t about them, regardless of how they are.

Unless the U.S. starts working *with* other countries,
I think everyone has replaced the Soviet Union as our adversary.

Those evil people outside the United States must be made to cooperate.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:00 am
I think Friedman has it very wrong and I believe he is basing his conclusions on a faulty premise.

He talks of Europe missing out, but fails to consider that for the most part many nations might want nothing to do with it unless they are able to address issues of sovereignty.

I agree that the formation of the new Iraqi government should not be passed off quickly and bungled, but it's equally important for the US not to give itself an indefinite authority over Iraq.

I do not believe that France's proposal was malicious, perhaps misguided from different perspective. Mr. Friedman simply has more faith in American benevolence than non-Americans do. This is only natural.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:01 am
Calling France an "enemy" is a bit over the top.

They don't have the muscle to replace the former Soviet Union as adversaries. They're more "obstructionists" than adversaries.

France's behavior in the world's political realm always reminds me of the line from Monthy Python - (paraphrased) "We're not dead yet!"
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:08 am
Ah, like Perfidious Albion, America is now the nation the French love to hate . . . it was "freedom fries" that did it--that was the proverbial straw which lead to the desert quadrupeds lumbar failure . . . them Froggies have had it in for us ever since, and they'll stop at nothing. I say, nuke the wine-swillin' bastards, and pave the country. The EU can use it for overflow parking . . .
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:16 am
Craven
Quote:
I do not believe that France's proposal was malicious, perhaps misguided from different perspective.


Based upon our recent and not so recent history with France IMO it is more than misguided. They must know that the demands are unreasonable and unworkable.
Do the French want the to see a US failure, IMO absolutely.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:22 am
"I say, nuke the wine-swillin' bastards, and pave the country. The EU can use it for overflow parking . . ."

The U.S. of A. would merely botch that operation also.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:24 am
Yeah, but we might get the Krauts by mistake, and then get to do it all over again . . . we never get to play with our nukes . . . it ain't fair . . .
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:27 am
Setanta wrote:
Yeah, but we might get the Krauts by mistake, . . .


By MISTAKE?

We are the former GDR! Commies, Greens and left Liberals are governing us!!!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:43 am
At a time when anti-Americanism is rising around the world, thanks to the war in Iraq, Americans are unusually interested in what France has to say.

No one really bothered about French opinions before.
(And not many know much about French policy and politics, e. g. that they have a conservative government in France.)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 12:25 pm
A short history of Franco-US discord

The current frost between France and the United States is not new. They have often disagreed over the past 45 years: France refused to allow US missiles stationed on its soil, withdrew from Nato's command structure, and recognised communist China even though it horrified the US. By PAUL-MARIE DE LA GORCE *

http://mondediplo.com/2003/03/07franceusa
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 01:05 pm
Well, perhaps all started on this very day (September, 18) in 1793, when the foundation stones of Capitol, designed by the FRENCH architect and engineer Pierre-Charles L'Enfant [sic!] were laid. :wink:

(And this "Child" planned the complete city of Washington as well!)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 01:21 pm
It started with De Gualle's feeling of being slighted by the Big three.
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oldandknew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 01:37 pm
With France as a friend, you don't need enemies.
The French are a funny lot & seem to have a perenial chip on their shoulder.
They still can't cope with the fact that they had to be rescued in WW2 & liberated, got thrown out of Indo China in the 1950s, North Africa in the 1960s & the invasion of British & American culture. They are the biggest obstructors to other countries plans & ideas. The English language is their nightmare & makes them feel very unstable & unloved
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:16 pm
For all of that OAK, they still have some intuitive knowledge they are the leading military stratigists of the world.
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owi
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:28 pm
Re: France, enemy of the US
Quote:
making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war


A ultimatum could have avoided this war. Sounds like a rather weird theory to me?!?
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:38 pm
My god, Walter! Washington was planned? String him up!
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:39 pm
Re: France, enemy of the US
Why not show us who you are quoting, owi? Like this. . .

owi wrote:
Quote:
making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war


A ultimatum could have avoided this war. Sounds like a rather weird theory to me?!?


By the way, no.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:42 pm
roger wrote:
My god, Walter! Washington was planned? String him up!

Charles Dickens:
Quote:

Washington, D.C.

It is sometimes called the City of Magnificent Distances, but it might with greater propriety be termed the City of Magnificent Intentions. … Spacious avenues, that begin in nothing, and lead nowhere; streets, mile-long, that only want houses, roads, and inhabitants; public buildings that need but a public to be complete; and ornaments of great thoroughfares, which only lack great thoroughfares to ornament-are its leading features.
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owi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 02:44 pm
Re: France, enemy of the US
roger wrote:
Why not show us who you are quoting, owi? Like this. . .


I quoted the article posted above.
0 Replies
 
 

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