DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:33 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
She'd also tell you that 99% of the parenting part is done pre-teen...

A lot of truth in this. You have to get 'em used to making the right choice long before the choice is big enough to destroy their lives.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:39 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

And thanks for understanding the feeling. People usually think I'm hyping it up when I say that.


They probably went to a different kind of school. From one school in California to another in Texas I had a very very different experience.

At one I was in the middle of several drive-bys, had a friend killed in front of me on the way home from school by another 14-year old who didn't even know him (gang initiation) and got a kid sent to jail for selling a gun in school (at the back of the classroom) and was threatened by his cousin's gang for it repeatedly. The school even had full-time police officers and a school crime "hotline" (that stupidly rang to an answering machine in the principals office, which is how my report of the gun transaction was found out, the cousin was in the office when I called).

It was horrible. My grades always went from straight As to no-attendance as some days I just wanted to play sports all day and would just repeat PE over and over. At least there was no fake civilization there and you knew what world you were in in the boy's locker room while the PE "teachers" read their sports pages which is what they'd also do when the kids were out beating each other senseless in "flag" (while any adult is looking) football.

I found it easier to just spend the day there without any pretense of trying to have a normal routine and confront the thugs without trying to balance my desire for education (and not getting expelled) from my desire to defend myself.

I learned things about defending myself. I learned that I needed to stand up for myself and sometimes I had to be an animal when others are acting like animals. I saw that putting up a fight (what I was always taught not to do) was sometimes the only thing that would stop people when you are in a dog-eat-dog world.

Now my experience in Texas was very very different, and I was the cool bad ass from California but I completely understand the horrible feelings about school, I just think they are character building experiences and wouldn't trade them for the world.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:46 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

I know, but at the same time I'm saying maybe you just haven't met the right kind of homeshoolers.


But I'm wiling to be introduced to them even in theory. Here's what I would see as "healthy" home schooling:

- No desire to restrict the child from information taught in school (the obvious evolution example).
- Not having a primary motivation of shielding the kid from the bad things in society like drugs, sex and bullying.
- Exemplary education beyond the 6th grade level.
- True experience in social integration with a broad sample of society (not just one religion, one small clique, one neighborhood, etc)
- Involuntary and uncomfortable facts of life. Sure, school isn't fun. I used to go absolutely nuts waiting for each class to end because it was so boring. But that feeling was a lot like my first cubicle job, and I think it's important for kids not to just do what they want and to have uncomfortable routines imposed on them, because in life they may really need to be able to handle that.

I know of no real or theoretical examples of the above. I'm sure it's possible, but I can't even conceive of the type of scenario where it's possible and certainly haven't seen it.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:52 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Hmm...

Those standards aren't being met by a lot of schools, either.

Do you want your kids poorly educated wholesale, or retail?
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:12 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Those standards aren't being met by a lot of schools, either.


Given that most are standards for the motivation of the parents, the school cannot meet them. Parents do.

Quote:

Do you want your kids poorly educated wholesale, or retail?


That has nothing to do with wanting them not to be excluded from society at large. You can supplement the school's social integration with your own education if you really think it's that bad. But I don't see how you can supplement the social integration.
littlek
 
  4  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:17 pm
Look everyone - I am not saying that every home-schooled child is getting shafted and that every public school student is getting the best possible education. I think that home-schooling can and does work beautifully, SOMETIMES. I am saying that I think it is more likely that HS'd kids will get a less well-round experience than those who go to school.

On the one hand those who are countering my points are saying that kids can be schooled more quickly at home than at school (probably true), but also are saying that socialization can occur through other venues. Those venues take up time.

Seeing HSing from a parental point of view, or as a friend or relative who home schools their child, you can see that this is working for those people. There are many other people who you don't know who are also HSing their children, many people who you don't know and who don't have any oversight of their practices. I don't want to sound reactive and hysterical, but I think that this is an issue with lots of gray areas. Further studies will be done, further articles will be written. We'll all keep learning.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:39 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Those standards aren't being met by a lot of schools, either.


Given that most are standards for the motivation of the parents, the school cannot meet them. Parents do.


Damn you for anticipating my next point! Wink

I think the whole socialization thing is a parental concern, too. Incidental to, but separate from, the question of which approach is best for one's child.
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:43 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Robert Gentel wrote:
But it was probably still good for your social development.
No, because I was the class clown, the class rebel and the class nerd all in one package.
(In practice, most of the time, I had my class nerd hat on.)
Oh yeah, and I was fat, too.
Given standard group dynamics among school children,
that basically meant I had no social life in school.

The only social life I had happened outside of school,
where I was free to associate with people who cared about classical music,
math and the sciences, anarchist philosophers, and other nerdy stuff I cared about.

U make a good point, Thomas.
I relate to neither having nor desiring any social life in school.

Altho I got good grades,
the most rapturously hedonic point of the school day was the end of it
and the most joyful day of the school year was the LAST one.

Fraternization occurred outside of school,
among people whom I met, with whom I shared common interests.
Presumably, this was also true of citizens of Western Civilization
who antedated compulsory education.





David
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:46 pm
@littlek,
littlek wrote:
I think that home-schooling can and does work beautifully, SOMETIMES.

Right. It is not the best choice for everyone. I'm just saying homeschooling is becoming more normal, and parents don't give each other knowing looks anymore when someone announces they're homeschooling their kid.

littlek wrote:
On the one hand those who are countering my points are saying that kids can be schooled more quickly at home than at school (probably true), but also are saying that socialization can occur through other venues. Those venues take up time.

I don't think time is the primary concern when one chooses to homeschool. Time, in fact, is exactly what is required to homeschool.

littlek wrote:
We'll all keep learning.

One hopes. Laughing
0 Replies
 
George
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:50 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
I think the whole socialization thing is a parental concern, too. Incidental to, but separate from, the question of which approach is best for one's child.

As others have said, socialization cuts both ways. However, unless the social
environment of the school is really ugly -- and there have been some very
disturbing stories posted here -- I think a child generally profits by learning in
a school setting.

If a parent is well-involved in the education of his or her child, then that child is
receiving home schooling to some degree.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 03:13 pm
@littlek,
littlek wrote:
On the one hand those who are countering my points are saying that kids can be schooled more quickly at home than at school (probably true), but also are saying that socialization can occur through other venues. Those venues take up time.

That's a fair argument against those of us who made both claims. (I only made the second.)

littlek wrote:
Seeing HSing from a parental point of view, or as a friend or relative who home schools their child, you can see that this is working for those people. There are many other people who you don't know who are also HSing their children, many people who you don't know and who don't have any oversight of their practices. I don't want to sound reactive and hysterical, but I think that this is an issue with lots of gray areas. Further studies will be done, further articles will be written. We'll all keep learning.

That's a very fair point, too. Can you tell us something about the studies we have about the overall success of homeschooling? For example, what data do we have on the products of homeschooling? SAT score comparisons controlling for confounding factors like parental income? College admissions not skewed by quota? And what are these statistics saying?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 03:18 pm
@George,
Quote:
. . . unless the social environment of the school is really ugly --
and there have been some very disturbing stories posted here --
I think a child generally profits by learning in a school setting.

Reading in newspapers of kids getting killed in school
after fights break out is not unique; every so ofen.


I 'm glad that I don 't have any kids.


David
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 03:38 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Can you tell us something about the studies we have about the overall success of homeschooling? For example, what data do we have on the products of homeschooling? SAT score comparisons controlling for confounding factors like parental income? College admissions not skewed by quota? And what are these statistics saying?


The last part is hard to say, because not all home schooled kids even attempt to go to college. In the religious nuts examples, lots of times there is a inherent hostility to higher education also being taught by the parents.

So I think statistics of the better examples of home schooling (and if they take an SAT at all I think they are on the upper end of that spectrum) don't say much about the bigger picture, with loony parents just denying education altogether and lazy parents just letting their kid off the hook from going to school and abusive parents making their kid work instead of study.

I agree that these are not good examples of what can be done with home schooling, but I contend that they are fairly typical examples and that the majority of home schooled kids around the world are often not getting education at all and "home schooling" in its modern meaning is a response to legal problems from compulsory education laws and is still illegal in many places (Germany is an example, Brazil is a better example).
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 03:58 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert, I realize those limitations, and I'm not asking for perfect knowledge. Just for something more solid than "my homeschooling sucked", "my school sucked too", "my think tank is bigger than yours", "drown the government in a bath tub!", and the kind of garbage that you find with naive googling. (None of which littlk has said, just in case it needs mentioning.)
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 04:16 pm
@Thomas,
I'd start with these two then:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/index.asp

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053/twps0053.html

But I don't think the specific data you asked about (college admissions, SAT scores) exists systemically in the US so all the data I find is only sampling examples and not very comprehensive.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 05:14 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Thanks Robert!

I'll look at them over the weekend -- I just got hit by one of those Friday evening request from a customer.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 06:59 pm
@Thomas,
Just for a heads up (to possibly save you some time), those links don't tend to say much about whether home schooling is good or bad, or even attempt to collect data for such a conclusion.

But there's good information on reported motivation for home schooling and the trends (on the rise) and demographics.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  4  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 10:00 pm
@Thomas,
This is my problem with home schooling. There hasn't been a lot of published research done on it lately, that I can find. Granted I haven't tried that hard. Lots of research from the 90s and early 2000s. It's often associated with fundamental families at the beginning and is a growing phenomena now. Many states have legalized the practice. Many people consider it to be un-regulated and un-verifiable.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 10:20 pm
@littlek,
Quote:
This is my problem with home schooling. There hasn't been a lot of published research done on it lately, that I can find. Granted I haven't tried that hard. Lots of research from the 90s and early 2000s. It's often associated with fundamental families at the beginning and is a growing phenomena now. Many states have legalized the practice.

Many people consider it to be un-regulated and un-verifiable.

This is supposed to be the land of the free
not the land of the REGULATED.




David
littlek
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 10:21 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Ha! Tell that to your pal Bush, he demanded NCLB.
 

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