1
   

So why are so many people down neverending/games?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:26 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth, yes, I'm a little oochy about threads that have definite site value and that I'm pretty well over looking at myself, the latin threads included. So far I'm leaving most of them blank or giving them a thumb up, with the except of the game stuff, which is being addressed.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:30 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
It's a complicated change and not one I have planned for the immediate future, but that's essentially what I'm talking about. The home page grid should be a grid that is comprised of the member's favorite tags or of all content minus the member's least favorite tags. That way, you don't need to vote down all the trivia for example, and can just avoid the whole tag.

Robert, i hope this will happen, and if it does, that the currently negative topics can be reset to 0. as you pointed out elsewhere, the users actually reading the topic can then rate it to indicate their feelings about the topic. in the interim, there's no quick & dirty temporary fix possible?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:31 pm
@ossobuco,
Cool, the thing Robert and OE are talking about.


0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Your response makes a lot of sense, but it's clear that you think that opinions that negative votes and thumbs down having negative connotations are not worth considering either, and that's sad.


No, your reading impediment is sad. I've spent at least dozens of hours specifically thinking about ways to extract the positive and minimize the negative and have been very clear about my interest and efforts in this regard in the very posts you just finished reading above.

Why am I discussing it with Nick in our work meetings if I don't think it's worth considering? This is the kind if knee-jerk armchair criticism that I am frustrated with. I've put thousands of hours into thinking about it and don't mind you criticizing things thoughtlessly but do get frustrated when I spend time explaining it only to have you ignore my intentions and tell me what I'm thinking for me.

If I don't explain, then you project into my intentions and I don't care so it's a losing game for me where I waste my time explaining things to people who are only pretending to be reasonable about it. If you aren't paying any attention to what I say, why make me say it over and over? Of course I care about these things. I just don't necessarily agree with your solutions for them, they are things I've thought about for a long time and have found problems with. They are sometimes things I've actually built and saw that was wrong (I've been building this for 3 years now, and this software restarted last December, do you realize how many of these simplistic ideas I've already considered and tried?)
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:38 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Then there are cosmetic changes that can make the negative less of a focus for some. For example, only positive votes could be displayed while the conflation of positive and negative votes used for collapsing and positioning.


Re-reading your post.... Are you suggesting that threads would simply never fall below zero "points" from the perspective of the users of the website [edit: while still hiding them away for the individual user]?

(If so, that sounds eminently sensible, too. Would address lots of the concerns voiced across the threads, I'd say...)
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:44 pm
@ossobuco,
What we need is a brief video demo of the A2K screen that walks people through all the new features and tools and shows them how they can be used to customize A2K for themselves and how their customization contributes to the overall structure of the forum as a whole.

It would be silly to produce one now since the site is still in a state of flux with revisions coming soon, but that would probably be the best teaching mechanism for new people on the site. Once they register they go directly to the demo video and then proceed to the forum.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:47 pm
I do very much understand why it is frustrating to field the same questions over and over RG and deal with the same seemingly obtusiveness of some of us. It is usually enough, for reasonable people, to know that they have been heard and understood and that their concern/complaint is being considered. And you have done that. And I thank you.

It also helps to keep reminding us that this is a work in progress and outstanding perfection in all aspects probably won't happen this week, but to not give up hope.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 02:48 pm
@old europe,
Something like that. The UI has other complications, for example there's the issue of transparency with collapsing off a hidden weight but you get the general concept.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 03:00 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Cool! Thanks for all the answers! It's really interesting not just to see the UI and how people react to it, but also to get your side of the whole thing, the thoughts you've put into it and into the possibilities of where this might be going...!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 03:03 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Re: Cycloptichorn (Post 3365200)
Quote:

Your response makes a lot of sense, but it's clear that you think that opinions that negative votes and thumbs down having negative connotations are not worth considering either, and that's sad.



No, your reading impediment is sad. I've spent at least dozens of hours specifically thinking about ways to extract the positive and minimize the negative and have been very clear about my interest and efforts in this regard in the very posts you just finished reading above.

Why am I discussing it with Nick in our work meetings if I don't think it's worth considering? This is the kind if knee-jerk armchair criticism that I am frustrated with. I've put thousands of hours into thinking about it and don't mind you criticizing things thoughtlessly but do get frustrated when I spend time explaining it only to have you ignore my intentions and tell me what I'm thinking for me.

If I don't explain, then you project into my intentions and I don't care so it's a losing game for me where I waste my time explaining things to people who are only pretending to be reasonable about it. If you aren't paying any attention to what I say, why make me say it over and over? Of course I care about these things. I just don't necessarily agree with your solutions for them, they are things I've thought about for a long time and have found problems with. They are sometimes things I've actually built and saw that was wrong (I've been building this for 3 years now, and this software restarted last December, do you realize how many of these simplistic ideas I've already considered and tried?)


Oh, it isn't that I don't think you've thought about this stuff, it's that you don't realize that your tone doesn't come off well to others when explaining it.

Here's the thing: we have a system right now which you have decided to use. This system has created an impression amongst many here. The impressions are not all positive. You think that by explaining things you can either change that or get people to accept it, and I understand that. But it doesn't work. Nothing you say is going to get me or others who look at the concept of Negative as BEING NEGATIVE to change our fundamental view of this, because people don't have their views changed through others' explanations.

I don't have a reading impediment. I've read your explanations. They do not change the way that I and others feel, and there will be MANY new people who will feel the same way. You ought to be listening to us instead of trying to change our opinions. It's like you don't understand that we are your customers. Listening to your customers is a Good Idea. And when a significant portion of them say 'I don't like the way this makes me feel,' that's a problem.

I think you need to take a look at the way you are explaining things and ask yourself if you are really being all that effective in helping solve the situation through your explanations. It isn't a reading impairment on our part. It's a lack of understanding of the problem on yours. Or maybe not; but that's the way that it comes across.

I think part of the problem is that you are trying to use the up/down system to do multiple different things. And while it is great for some, it isn't great for others. I understand the concept of community moderation through downvotes and I get why you would want to use it, but the baggage that goes along with the process is a significant problem for myself and others.

It isn't that I don't think you considered the problem, it's that I think you considered it and decided to go with the system anyways. I don't like the system. I'm under no compunction to keep my mouth shut about not liking the system. I'm trying to be helpful and suggest ways that the system could be fixed; out of many of the different 'to-do list' items I've seen, the concept of removing the negative aspects of rating has not been highly placed. Yet it sure seems to bother a significant percentage of your customer base. Perhaps it is higher placed then I think, but this was not communicated well.

When I asked you a question, you responded with:

Quote:


The simple answer is because I think my ideas would work a lot better than yours.


And here's the thing: I'm sure your idea does work well, exceedingly well, as long as you ignore the fact that some people actively dislike using your process. I'm sure it would be clunkier to do things in a way that is non-pejorative to some. But is that the best way to maximize the customer base?

The tone of your responses indicates that you don't seem to understand that you can't expect to solve people's emotional responses with logical arguments about a process. Efficiency is great, but warmth is just as important in the long run. There doesn't seem to have been much thought put into whether or not the process creates an enjoyable experience, not just an efficient one. As I said above: you say that you have put this thought in, but your responses have all revolved around discussing what is the best and most effective way of doing things. They don't directly address the question of whether or not it's fun, and isn't that an important part of the experience?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 03:09 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butryflynet, I like that or some graphic representation of it, and as you say, once things have developed further. There is such impatience with reading. Plus, many will just being checking a website and not planning on some time investment.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 04:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfire wrote - earlier :

"And like Letty's long running and very popular radio thread--so active that it went negative in a hurry as those who don't play there moved it out of the way. That's just wrong. "

yes , foxfire , i too think that's wrong !
i have yet to use the "thumb" even once and doubt i'll ever bother with it .

one thing that is more importannt to me , is a decent "quote" feature .
having BOTH begining and end of quote show up at once and trying to squeeze the actual quote in is a bit cumbersome (for arthritic fingers ) .
perhaps i'm missing something ?
hbg

(i know i should be grateful , instead i'm getting old and crotchety)

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 05:29 pm
@hamburger,
Well the board gods are hearing us and taking it all under advisement I'm sure, and little by little things will probably sort out as they should. My only technical complaint so far is that I haven't been able to learn how to use the tagging system really effectively (or edit it to make it effective) but that's my fault and I will learn (eventually). And also there are some threads I simply can't find because they are already buried so deep. (The board gods need to recruit a writer who can do a 'tagging for dummies' thread or some such on some of this stuff when the technical explanations go right over our heads.)

As for using the quote function, for right now I find it easier to type in:
Hamburger said
followed by the pasted quote I wish to quote. Then highlight that quote and click on the quote thingee and it will wrap it correctly.
Then space down one and respond to it.
More steps than we used to have to do to quote a whole quote, but that too will be remedied in time. Same number of steps to quote a line or paragraph out of somebody's post.
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 06:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfire wrote :

"(The board gods need to recruit a writer who can do a 'tagging for dummies' thread or some such on some of this stuff when the technical explanations go right over our heads.)"

where do i sign up - grin ?

yes , i've done the "make space" job to get a quote in - still a bit of a pain - actually find that quotation marks work almost as well - for a dummy anyway - more grins .
greetings !
hbg

i imagine in another few months it might be worthwhile to start learning about and understanding the new and improved a2k .
in the meantime i'll stumble along like a drunk .


http://www.ahajokes.com/funpages/drunk01.gif

i AM trying to get up !
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 06:24 pm
@hamburger,
if anyone ever doubted that hamburger is my dad, I've finally got the evidence to quote

Quote:
i AM trying to get up !
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 06:27 pm
@ehBeth,
oh the quote-y approach I'm using

reply - enable bbcode editor - select quote

slide down into the post I'm going to pick my quote up at - highlight what I'm after - copy - then drop it between the [] and [/] - reply
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 06:34 pm
@ehBeth,
That does require squeezing it in though. It's easier just to paste the quote, highlight it, and click on the quote thingee in the bbcode editor. That wraps the quote code around the post just like it used to do.
yitwail
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:59 am
@Foxfyre,
good news in this topic: Very Happy (add a quote button in edit preferences)
http://able2know.org/topic/121177-1#post-3365802
Foxfyre wrote:

That does require squeezing it in though. It's easier just to paste the quote, highlight it, and click on the quote thingee in the bbcode editor. That wraps the quote code around the post just like it used to do.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:07 am
Quote:
So why are so many people down neverending/games?


Ask yourself that same question a hundred times... Wink

Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:08 am
@yitwail,
I spoke of several fixes, the quick ones will... come quickly I guess.

One's coming tonight. There has been an imbalance of motivation for the negative voting versus the positive voting. The negative one provided the community feedback but also provided the individual with an immediate filter. The positive one only provided the community feedback but didn't usually provide any immediate benefit to the individual.

So the tweak that will be made is to harness another user action to provide some balance. Right now we already do auto-voting for other actions, for example reporting a post will also vote it down and tagging a topic will vote it up. Now we'll add replying. Given that the rating system is fundamentally about providing recommendations on what posts are worth reading or replying to, replying to it is also useful feedback. So by default that will trigger a positive vote, but the user can change it to whatever he wants.

Some may ask why the voting at all, with reply counts for the threads, but this is quite different, as it's 1 vote per user. So a topic with 200 users is not the same as a topic with 2 users and 200 posts.

In any case, this is the first quick tweak to the voting system, and this post is the first test so let's see how it goes.
0 Replies
 
 

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