Why is Georgeob1 so proud of doing harm to the working class

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Why is Georgeob1 so proud of his role in harming the men and women union members of America? Does he realize the harm he has done to the poor and middle classes? Labor unions helped to create and sustain the American middle class. The anti-union corporate bosses used their hired guns (including Georgeob1) to break unionism in the U. S. When Ronald Reagan became president, the corporate robber barons had the president's help in their campaign to weaken and/or destroy unionism. Reagan loaded the Labor Relations Board with anti-union Republicans, whose rules changes made it extremely difficult for unions to win organizing elections. Law firms that specialized in attacking unions and protecting corporations grew in numbers and increased financial support. Reagan's attack on labor unions began the demise of American Dream for the middle class.

But Reagan had help. The male national union leadership did not do a good job of responding to this challenge because they were slow in recognizing the threat. The old fuddy-duddies union leaders were not interested in organizing women and workers outside of industrial plants. These were the areas of potential growth of union membership. It took a bunch of union women activists to shake up the moribund male union leaders and change their direction. When I have more time, I may write about what these women did to save the labor union movement. I played a prominent role in that effort along with other women around the country.

The middle class still has not recovered from Reagan's assault against labor unions. As a result, the middle class has been weak in protecting itself from George WY. Bush's anti labor policies and economic globalization.

Why is Georgeob1 so proud of the role he played in weakening the middle class?

The following posts between Georgeob1 and me from another thread are what prompted me to start this new topic:

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

You got it wrong, Georgeob1. You just don't like McCain's flip-flopping etc. exposed. Typical partisan head in the sand attitude.

Yes, I have a spunky fighting spirit. But I've mellowed in my old age and am not nearly as tough on scumbags as I once was.

BBB
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Georgeob1 response:

Not at all. Perfect consistency is not a virtue I admire, and the search for the right answer does indeed involve some adjustment of one's thinking.
I whooped Bob Georgine: I whooped Becker and I would have whooped you!

I'm willing to accept your assertion that you have mellowed a bit. However, you should acknowledge that, based on the evidence you provide, that phenomenon is a bit hard for easy-going, rational, and unbiased observers observers, such as myself, to detect.

Still with memories in mind of CBAs I negotiated with the Building Trades (Then under Bob Georgine), the metal Worker's Accociations and the Steelworkers union (back when Becker ran the show); I would have greatly enjoyed outmaneuvering you in the negotiations !

Georgeob1
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BBB response:

I will respond at the risk of diverting from the topic of this thread.

You would have had a tough and clever opponent. I spent as much time researching my employer negotiator's needs for those he/she represented as I did on the employees I represented to try to achieve a win-win outcome. I never had a strike because both sides were satisfied with the fair negotiation outcome. I never BSed the employees to inflate my financial goals and was always realistic with them and they weren't disappointed.

I represented hospital workers, employed and private practice physicians and dentists, office workers. I also represented the union security guards who worked for the homeowners' association of which I was the homeowner president of the Board of Directors. Even though I was management/homeowner, they trusted me and I achieved good contracts outcomes for both them and the homeowners. Trust is key to successful contract negotiations for both employer and employee.

Before I became a union representative, when I was the office manager for several large local labor unions, which included Teamsters, Retail Clerks, Building Trades, Electrical Workers, Hospital Workers, Office and Professional Workers. I trained newly elected union representatives to be successful in their negotiations and their representation. It pissed me off that, as a woman, I could train the men but couldn't be a representative at much higher pay. So I set out to get the "paper proof" that I could do the job and finally was successful. I bet Georgeob1 never had to prove he was as good or better than a man.

BBB
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Georgeob1 response:

I whooped Bob Georgine: I whooped Becker and I would have whooped you!
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BBB response:

Georgeob1 wrote: I whooped Bob Georgine: I whooped Becker and I would have whooped you!

You only know me on A2K as an old woman. I was much sharper and competent in my younger years. I would never brag about "whooping" anyone as that destroys civil relationships that encourage good negotiation outcomes.

Your demostrated bully arrogance would set you up for a big surprise.

Building Trades are easy compared to organizing and negotiating for physicians and dentists. You want difficult, try herding them, especially when you are a woman and not a doctor. I had to earn their respect and trust.

BBB
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Georgeob1 response:

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Georgeob1 wrote: I whooped Bob Georgine: I whooped Becker and I would have whooped you!

You only know me on A2K as an old woman. I was much sharper and competent in my younger years. I would never brag about "whooping" anyone as that destroys civil relationships that encourage good negotiation outcomes.

That's how I whooped them.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Your demostrated bully arrogance would set you up for a big surprise.

You are prejudging me - a fatal error.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Building Trades are easy compared to organizing and negotiating for physicians and dentists. You want difficult, try herding them, especially when you are a woman and not a doctor. I had to earn their respect and trust. BBB

That may be your opinion, but these were the largest industrial unions in the country, and this was most certainly not amateur night.

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It's all a matter of perspective, BBB. What you think is right, someone else will think wrong. Being on opposite sides doesn't make either of you right or wrong. Making someone wrong just says that YOU want or need to be right. And nobody ever is because there will always be a dissenting opinion. It's a lost cause, a waste of time. If you accept it life gets a lot easier.

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Mame

Mame wrote:

It's all a matter of perspective, BBB. What you think is right, someone else will think wrong. Being on opposite sides doesn't make either of you right or wrong. Making someone wrong just says that YOU want or need to be right. And nobody ever is because there will always be a dissenting opinion. It's a lost cause, a waste of time. If you accept it life gets a lot easier.

I never have, nor will ever, just accept life as it is to be more comfortable when people are being harmed. Where would we be without the civil rights movement, the womens' movement, women and minority voting rights movement, the American revolution, the Civil War to liberate the slaves, Truman's desegration of the military, opposition to illegal wars (Vietnam and Iraq examples), legalization of labor unions, etc. etc.

I've never been comfortable when I see injustice being ignored and whatever time I gave to correct it was not wasted.

BBB

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I agree, but there's no reason to get your panties in a twist. Just do what you can or want, quietly. No need to call someone out because they disagree with you.

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Mame

Mame wrote:

I agree, but there's no reason to get your panties in a twist. Just do what you can or want, quietly. No need to call someone out because they disagree with you.

Georgeob1 not only disagreed with me, he taunted me and gloated to me publically on an A2K thread of a different topic. Not wanting to divert that thread, I started this thread to continue the conversation.

BBB

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Why don't you just pm him?

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Mame

Mame wrote:

Why don't you just pm him?

People are always being "called out" on A2K where important disagreements exist. Georgeob1 started this by injecting HIS OPINION into another thread not on the topic.

Why do you object to this subject being discussed on A2K?

What are your opinions about labor unions?

What are your opinions about the decline of the middle class?

BBB

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Re: Mame

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Mame wrote:
Why don't you just pm him?

People are always being "called out" on A2K where important disagreements exist. Georgeob1 started this by injecting HIS OPINION into another thread not on the topic.

Why do you object to this subject being discussed on A2K?

What are your opinions about labor unions?

What are your opinions about the decline of the middle class?

BBB

I don't object to it, I'm just wondering at the need to call him out. You gave your reasons; good enough.

My opinions about labour unions are mixed, BBB. My mother was very politically active during the '70s and '80s for the extreme left (the New Democratic Party) and we kids were dragged into rallies and protests and speeches for years. We helped campaign in every way imaginable. At the time, she was the president of her union local, so we got a good dose of what went on there, too.

Not having a mind of my own for several years, I followed along, in a fairly blind and docile fashion.

I voted NDP because that was the way I was raised.

At some point, I began to think for myself. When I was in my late 20s, I got a job in the University where membership in the 1500 member clerical union was mandatory, of course. I wanted to know what was going on but they had no regular information coming out, so I started a newsletter. Within 1.5 yrs, I was first the Chair of the Contract Committee (during contract negotiations) and then the president (nobody else would take the job).

I saw a lot of abuse on BOTH sides. I don't like conflict, but I won't shy away from it. I am resolution-oriented, as opposed to conflict-oriented.

Our grievance committee was very much conflict-oriented, but when I was acting as steward, I was seeking resolution. So, our executive meetings were often conflicted, to say the least.

What I will say is that unions deprive individuals of many things. In our union, people got promoted based primarily on seniority rather than ability. I disagree with that. Many people lose their incentive, as a result of not being recognized, and start to not care about their productivity. They lose their ability to negotiate for themselves. They get stuck in roles. They lose imagination. Their motivation is gone. To name just a few. They start to think they are 'owed' or 'entitled', when they are not.

I understand the need for unions, but I wish it were not so much an "US vs THEM" mentality.

You are right - some things need to be fought for, but I am not the one to do it. That you are is a part of what makes you BBB; but not everyone is built that way and we can't all be the same. Georgeob1 and others that think his way are therefore entitled to a hassle-free life, just as you are and as I am. There is no Right or Wrong, definitively speaking.

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Mame
Mane, I knew there was a reason I like you. We have had very similar life experiences up to a point. I didn't come from your family background. My mother was a world-class hypocrite on most social issues; my father was not as bad. They both were anti-union, etc.

In fact, I think my devotion to the Civil Rights Movement probably started with my mother refusing to let an African-American into our home to discuss a work problem with my father, who was his supervisor. they had to discuss it on the front porch. I still get angry when I recall that.

I recognize many of the problems with unions that you posted. It's taken many years to force union leaders to change their policies. I worked very hard to achieve many of the changes that corrected some of the problems you listed. I'm proud that I never cause a strike over contract negotiations. I've been on a long strike against my own employer that could have been avoided, but was caused because of our union rep's competition attitude. I learned a lot from that experience that made me a better shop steward and later a union representative.

Sadly, for your first union experience, you worked for a university, which are among the worst employers in the country. They have a terrible reputation for the way all of their employees are treated.

I also don't like conflict as a means of settling and devoted much of my union life to find better ways to settle issues. I not only did it in unions, I was one of a small group of people who worked with the American Arbitration Association to research and establish neighborhood dispute resolution programs throughout the united states. It's a long story of a very successful program of which I'm very proud.

My objection to Georgeob1's approach to negotiations is that his is to crush his opponent. I believe in trying to find and agree to win-win solutions so that both sides can find compromises that benefit their members. Bullying by powerful and rich employers achieve nothing but hatred and, as we can see, decline of the working classes.

The main difference between us, Mame, is that I refused to accept the status quo and fought to change it for the common good.

But I still like and admire you, and find you to be one of the most interesting women I've met in a long time.

BBB

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Thank you, BBB, for sharing your experiences and for liking me despite everything Smile

I have to disagree with you on two points.

One: The university at which I worked was not terrible. The management is just people like you and me. Some misguided. Some bullies. Some with good intentions. I've met management I would have worked for, some I would rather eat dirt before doing so. I was also IN management for 6 years myself, and supervised 3 clerical staff. I was not a bully and I didn't take advantage of anyone. Those that are will be that way whether in a unionized environment or not.

With respect to contract issues, it's a no-brainer that they're going to give out as little as possible. That's their agenda and they would be negligent if they didn't do it as thoroughly as possible.

Two: I don't think georgeob1 is as you describe him. That is too simplistic and too general. There are many facets to each of us and I've met him. I don't think he's a bully and I don't think he crushes people. I think he is just very stalwart in his beliefs, as are both you and I. I think his posts are eminently reasonable, for the most part. Of course, this is my opinion; feel free to disagree as I know you will Smile

Not everyone has evil intentions, as you know. Sometimes we just misunderstand the place they're coming from.

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Mame
Mame, I would agree with you about Georgeob1's charm and reasonableness---until he said he would womp me. That pissed me off! So let that be a lesson to him. Don't mess with a woman former union representative.

I bet Georgeob1 was never threatened to be run over by a scab driver in a huge semi-truck trying to break a picket line. I was alone with no one to help me. I stood my ground and the cursing driver got out of his truck, jumped up and down in anger, and finally got back in his truck and drove away. I was left trembling but still blocking his way between his truck and the loading dock and I had not said a single word to him. Just stood my ground. I keep asking myself if I was brave or stupid?

BBB

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Luella wrote:

Quote:

I bet Georgeob1 was never threatened to be run over by a scab driver in a huge semi-truck trying to break a picket line. I was alone with no one to help me. I stood my ground and the cursing driver got out of his truck, jumped up and down in anger, and finally got back in his truck and drove away. I was left trembling but still blocking his way between his truck and the loading dock and I had not said a single word to him. Just stood my ground. I keep asking myself if I was brave or stupid?

I would say that you were incredibly brave. I've always known how devoted you were to your work and to the unions you represented. But here, like this, making a statement against one person, is wrong.

There was another thread that was accusatory about a certain person who was named, as you have named George.
Was there any resolution at the end of that thread? I think you know that the response was, basically, in defense of the person being accused. Nothing positive came of it except for the possible satisfaction of the person instigating the thread. No good came of it, only hurt, bad feelings, and a sense shock at the inappropriate method used.

The same will happen here. Why don't you start a thread on union negotiating? That way, there will be a subject that can be discussed.

You know I love you and you also know that I am always honest with you. So this time, I have to say that you are wrong. No, you aren't necessarily wrong, but your method leaves no room for reasonable discussion.

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Hey, y'all. Didn't Mame start a thread: Who is Georgeob 1? Well, he's Irish, and he likes E.A. Robinson, and he knows The Navy Hymn. Those are the things that I like to discuss. Razz

Oh, yes, and I forgot. He knows Thomas More, too.

As for unions, bbb. The United Mine Workers was really great when it first began, but like most powerful unions, they can become corrupt. The members access to hospital plans was so cheap, that it became abused, and drove the costs for everyone right through the ceiling. Black Lung legislation caused some families to disinter bodies to see if they could prove that their kin had the disease thus getting compensation.

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Diane
Diane, I love you back because you always speak the truth as you see it. I don't want to bring up the other thread you mentioned, so I will concentrate on my thread which is very different from the other example you cited. I have not falsely accused Georgeob1 of a crime.

I included Georgeob1 because HE raised the issue, boasting about how he crushed working people and their unions and stating that he would have crushed me in the same way. I found this really offensive and disappointing from a man that I've liked and have enjoyed his posts until now.

Georgeob1 knows of my long history of working for the common good, unions being only one path, and teasing me about it at every opportunity. But this time, he went too far and I objected to his arrogant boasting and the damage such actions have done to the working class, not just by Georgeob1, but by thousands of others. It was a direct slam of the majority of my life's work. Georgeob1 had to know that.

Apparently no one else sees anything wrong with Georgeob1 bragging that he could "womp me" and implying that I was incompetent. Am I wrong to mention it?

BBB

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You sound hurt and disappointed in him, BBB. Of course you are not wrong to feel and think as you do, but it would probably have been better to question him in a pm rather than make the public statement you did about him. I know you were just reacting, but I doubt very much that he said that to spite you.

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Mame
Mame, I guess he will have to be asked if that was his intent. I hope it wasn't.

A PM discussion would not have addressed the damage the powerful union busters have done to the working class. I wanted people to understand today's economic conditions and the connection to union busters.

BBB

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As Diane suggested, a thread on that would help.

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Mame

Mame wrote:

As Diane suggested, a thread on that would help.

There is no reason that people interested in the weakening of labor union and it's effect on the economics of the working class can't state their opinions here, as Letty did. Georgeob1 doesn't have to be an issue in their response.

Maybe Georgeob1 could start his own thread about how successful he was at "whomping" the big bad labor unions.

BBB

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luella, when people see this thread they will probably go somewere else because of it's title.

I really wish you would start a thread on union matters. There is such a long, rich history there that the thread could be one of those classics. There has been so much corruption on both sides of the picket lines that novels have been written about it. I think you know that Bob's grandfather was at the Ludlow Massacre, defending the strikers. That is a gruesome story, but it holds a world of meaning in the history of unions.

I won't post anymore on this thread. I think you know how I feel about this kind of venting.

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I agree, Diane. Honestly, all the hate and dissention threads and posts in the past month or so are leaving me wondering what I see in a2k.

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Why is Georgeob1 so proud of doing harm to the working class

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