Ireland holds vote today that could determine EU's future

You educate the people, you wise them up enough so that they understand that track record matters. EU leaders have done very well in the first 40 years or so to make wise choices, to not trample on individuals or individual nations. The fears are unsupported by the history of the EU nor by the facts, therefore fears and not believing EU leaders is not a justified basis for rejecting EU plans. I understand that some people deeply desire to cling to their national identity, but this can not stand if Europe, and all of the people of Europe, are to prosper. The leaders understand what the citizens need long term better than the people do, and they have proven it.

I do not accept your authoritarian view of human affairs, and I believe history is with me on this point.

Yes George, your concerns are exactly the same as the Irish have,
they feel that their voting power will be diminished with the new treaty.

You know for yourself that if you put 10 people into one room, everyone
will have a different opinion, and it's very hard to arrive at a consensus.
Take 26 countries and it seems impossible, however, I see it as quite
an accomplishment that all nations with the exception of Ireland, have
come to such a consensus, and in my opinion it is would be up to the 25 other nations to convince the Irish, as opposed to going back to the drawing board and revise what's initially a good treaty.

What if the revised treaty is acceptable to the Irish, but all of a sudden
the Italians disagree? There has to be a give-and-take compromise accepted in order to make it work. Sure, Germany and France benefited
early on, yet both countries have contributed enormously thereafter.

georgeob1 wrote:

I do not accept your authoritarian view of human affairs, and I believe history is with me on this point.

It is not an authoritarian view, it is the observation that wise peoples let the individuals who know what they are doing lead the way. Leaders who have shown over time that they have ideas that work should be given room to work. History is on my side.

CalamityJane wrote:

Yes George, your concerns are exactly the same as the Irish have,
they feel that their voting power will be diminished with the new treaty.

You know for yourself that if you put 10 people into one room, everyone
will have a different opinion, and it's very hard to arrive at a consensus.
Take 26 countries and it seems impossible, however, I see it as quite
an accomplishment that all nations with the exception of Ireland, have
come to such a consensus, and in my opinion it is would be up to the 25 other nations to convince the Irish, as opposed to going back to the drawing board and revise what's initially a good treaty.

What if the revised treaty is acceptable to the Irish, but all of a sudden
the Italians disagree? There has to be a give-and-take compromise accepted in order to make it work. Sure, Germany and France benefited
early on, yet both countries have contributed enormously thereafter.

I agree with you in all this Calamity. However, I don't think that the EU has as yet fully addressed these very issues. I believe the various rejections seen in national referenda are illustrative of that point.

I'm not trying to find fault with Europeans or the EU on this matter -- it is an evolutionary process in which they are so far doing very well, but which still has some inevitable unresolved challenges before it.

I hope that authoritarian "solutions", such as those suggested by Hawkeye will not be used to "get by" these issues, and instead that democratic means be found to address them. (Perhaps he believes he has found the solution to the creation of Plato's philosopher kings in EU bureaucrats.) If this is not the case, then I fear the underlying issues will simply emerge later, and perhaps more disruptively.

Odd isn't it that some Europeans who are long accustomed to vociferously criticizing the United States, are so sensitive to even the gentlest comment on their affairs by an American.

Odd isn't it that some Europeans who are long accustomed to vociferously criticizing the United States, are so sensitive to even the gentlest comment on their affairs by an American.

I hope that authoritarian "solutions", such as those suggested by Hawkeye will not be used to "get by" these issues, and instead that democratic means be found to address them. (Perhaps he believes he has found the solution to the creation of Plato's philosopher kings in EU brueaucrats.) If this is not the case, then I fear the underlying issues will simply emerge later, and perhaps more disruptively.
.

Odd isn't it that some Europeans who are long accustomed to vociferously criticizing the United States, are so sensitive to even the gentlest comment on their affairs by an American.

I think the lesson of America's failure to resolve fundamental issues at the time that our constitution was adopted is illustrative of the point. The issues simply went underground and emerged later in a struggle over slavery and state's rights. It then took a bloody civil war to resolve them.

Quote:

hamburger wrote:


ps. reading canadian commentars , i get the impression that many irish are still against abortion and are worried that a european government would over-rule the irish laws against abortion .

Hamburger, Germany had the same problem when East and West were
united.
(we arrived in hamburg just days after the iron curtain opened - great joy by everyone ! we went back two years later - plenty of sour faces . "THEY are taking our jobs ! " - and there is still at least residual resenrment . hbg)

Abortion was legal in East-Germany and prohibited in West-Germany. They had to arrive at a mutually agreed upon solution.

Ireland was also against divorce laws and only has allowed couples to
do so in recent years.
(on a somewhat frivolous note : i didn't realize that ireland "only has allowed couples to do so in recent years." ) wouldn't have liked to live in ireland ! :wink:

Turkey is not part of the EU because of their rigid
law pertaining to womens rights and the death penalty.

Becoming a member of the EU and benefiting from it means to obey
certain conditions and laws the majority of EU nations implemented already 50 years ago) .

georgeob wrote:

I hope that authoritarian "solutions", such as those suggested by Hawkeye will not be used to "get by" these issues, and instead that democratic means be found to address them. (Perhaps he believes he has found the solution to the creation of Plato's philosopher kings in EU brueaucrats.) If this is not the case, then I fear the underlying issues will simply emerge later, and perhaps more disruptively.
.

The masses do not have the power to give informed consent if the don't understand the goal or the options. Your devotion to the ideals of democracy, while noble, misunderstand human nature. The federation goals at the heart of the EU concept are sufficiently alien to the current European populous that it can't happen if the masses are allowed to drive the bus. They don't know how to drive it. The masses must consent to let their leaders drive, while reserving the right to order a change in direction at a later date. Most of Europe understands this, the Irish however seem to be a little slow.

I hope that authoritarian "solutions", such as those suggested by Hawkeye will not be used to "get by" these issues, and instead that democratic means be found to address them. (Perhaps he believes he has found the solution to the creation of Plato's philosopher kings in EU brueaucrats.) If this is not the case, then I fear the underlying issues will simply emerge later, and perhaps more disruptively.

Odd isn't it that some Europeans who are long accustomed to vociferously criticizing the United States, are so sensitive to even the gentlest comment on their affairs by an American.

Of course! It's always easier to criticize the others.

I don't think your views are typical of those that prevail today in Europe (at least I hope they aren't).

No an authoritarian solution cannot be found and should not, but since
the Irish Premier Cowen is speaking of a second referendum, perhaps
the Irish government was not too pleased of the outcome either.

can only be explained by the majority of Europeans agreeing with me.

The masses do not have the power to give informed consent if the don't understand the goal or the options.