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everybody's free?

 
 
rockpie
 
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 07:03 am
For some reason, some people seem to accept the Christian response to the problem of evil to be found in the idea that we are free and chose amiss, therefore allowing evil. However, are we really free?

The more that scientific, psychological and sociological knowledge advances, the more we are discovering that we are not actually free. Leibniz suggests that there are 2 main ways of thinking about human freedom:

Liberty of Spontaneity

Anthony Flew believes that a free act is something that flows from the nature of a person and is not forced from an individual by anything outside of them. This understanding of freedom is known as freedom of spontaneity. Flew uses the example of a man who is choosing a wife to marry. The man may feel that his choice is free, but actually the choice he makes is constrained by his background. Friends and family will know the sort of person that is likely to appeal to him. His action, according to Flew, is free as it arises out of his nature and without external compulsion, but it is not random or arbitrary. Flew states;

''To say that Murdo was free to ask whichever eligible girls of his acquaintance he wanted, and that he chose to ask, was accepted by, and has now married Mairi of his own free will, is not to say that his actions and choices were uncaused or in principle unpredictable... Indeed those who knew Murdo may have known what was going to happen long before the date of the wedding...''

Flew also uses the analogy of a man who is hypnotised to attend a library at a ertain place and time, to borrow a certain book. The man is also hypnotised to forget these instructions. On coming to, the man will carry out the instructions and believe them to be of his own free choice. This is entirely consistent with being free in terms of freedom of spontaneity as we can think of ourselves as free so long as we do not have a full knowledge and understanding of those factors that influence us; here, the hypnotist.

The problem with such an understanding of freedom for theists is that it laces the blame for any evil that may have emerged from man's exercising of his free will back with God. This is as if choice is determined by a persons nature, then God could have provided all people with a certain nature that would have meant that they would still be free and only choose the good. Obviously this only works if you accept this definition of freedom.

Vardy criticises such an idea of freedom for actually being too restrictive. He states;

''Freedom is not just freedom of action as Flew assumes. It is a freedom to choose to make ourselves into different types of being.''

For Vardy, freedom is much more than simply acting according to our natures without any external compulsion. Instead, it is having the opportunity to change our very natures if we so wish.

Liberty of Indifference

This is a form of freedom that assumes that when we have choices, we make our decisions without regard for what has come before us. Mackie states that the liberty of indifference is a state in which there is ''no set of antecedent sufficient causes for an individual to choose one option as opposed to another.'' A person ultimately has no influences acting upon them when they make a decision here.

If indeed, we do have liberty of indiffernce, the freedom to act in ways that are not wholly determined by our background and genetic make-up, then perhaps God could not have created us so that we are both free and never sin, as in the idea of liberty of spontaneity. It is to this issue that we must now turn.

The Utopia Thesis

Some have suggested that God could have still created in the state of the liberty of indifference and made us to choose the right on all occasions. For instance, Descartes states that God can do the logically impossible, such as square a circle and so on, using this model of God, it should be possible for him to do the seemingly logcal impossible of creating free beings who will always choose the good. This idea was described by Ninian Smart as the Utopia Thesis. However, if we accept that God can do the logically impossible, then he does not care for or love his creation as he had the chance to create us free and always to choose the good, thus creating a world free of suffering and evil, but refused to take this chance. Such a God, who can do the logically impossible is either evil, or simply does not exist.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,610 • Replies: 15
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 11:30 am
No offense to you, but I find that hogwash. We have free will. We reason and use our experiences to determine our actions. Plain and simple. Unless, of course, I'm missing something in your post. :wink:
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 11:43 am
Re: everybody's free?
rockpie wrote:
Anthony Flew believes ........


He only believes that because he has to.

Had he been free, he might have chosen to believe otherwise. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 04:13 pm
Rock - I enjoy your writing style. While I don't entirely argee with the notion that we don't have free will, I do believe that there are biological factors which limit the freedoms we have. The topic you are writing about is one that came up in a interfaith roundtable I was a part of about a week ago. It is a good topic to further write about. I think you are off to a great start.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 09:18 pm
The freedom we profess comes from the very boundaries we percieve as it's limitations.
There is no free will. There is no determined fate. There is only existence, and within it, we all command a tiny fracture of the total energy, and so we exert our influence according to the amount of energy under our command.

The concept of free will only comes into play when this fact is neglected. When we cease to focus on the entire picture and concentrate on the concept of self, the concept of the adversarial non-self arises and gives birth to this never ending paradox.

But it is all a misconception...

Or, to phrase it in another way: The problem free will vs determinism simply isn't valid to explain or explore the mechanisms this debate usually attempts to illuminate.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 08:06 am
I'm free
I'm free
And freedom tastes of reality
I'm free
I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me

If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high
You'd laugh and say nothing's that simple
But you've been told many times before
Messiahs pointed to the door
No one had the guts to leave the temple

I'm free
I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me


Rockpie has become a much more tolerable member since he stopped ranting, and making bogus claims while denying that he's a student of theology.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 08:28 am
Re: everybody's free?
rockpie wrote:
then perhaps God could not have created us so that we are both free and never sin, as in the idea of liberty of spontaneity. It is to this issue that we must now turn.

I imagine He could have limited our choices and prevented sin. Then we'd still be animals.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 08:51 am
Adam and Eve were given a conscience that operated perfectly in all areas of morality. They could not have committed murder, rape, or theft. So, in that sense, they did not have free will; they could not have sinned. But, as far as whether to plant corn or potatoes, or to visit Europe or Argentina, they had complete freedom.

However, in the case of the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad", they did have choice and did sin. (Genesis 2:17) We now have 'free will' in all things not limited by our biological makeup. This sickness, though it has lasted thousands of years, is not permanent.

I rated you average, a gift.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 09:01 am
Neo, stop floggin' that moribund equine and make a pot of coffee . . .
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 01:24 pm
Hi Set.
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Coffee's cold now.

But someone has to at least try to give a coherent explanation for the Genesis account.

You won't see the evangelicals fishin' in this stream.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2008 01:25 pm
Well, i've always been willing to give you credit for the effort, if not for the result . . .

But hey, what do i know . . . i just one a them Satan-lovin', wild-eyed atheists who don't know nothin' 'bout the bobble . . .
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 06:29 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
The freedom we profess comes from the very boundaries we percieve as it's limitations.
There is no free will. There is no determined fate. There is only existence, and within it, we all command a tiny fracture of the total energy, and so we exert our influence according to the amount of energy under our command.

Which seems to be a way of saying that our ability to create is limited. However, what determines how we "exert our influence over this tiny fraction of total energy"? Where does the impulse to act one way or another come from? Since actions originate in thoughts, this is equivalent to asking "where do thoughts come from?". My point of view is that I have absolutely no idea whether we have free will or not, but I think that it is better to believe that we have free will because it encourages us to take responsibility for our actions, which seems to be a good thing.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 07:05 pm
Free will.... The term is just confusing. I do believe that we have will. Is it free or restricted?

It is both, and the truth is that a will that is totally restricted, as opposed to totally free, isn't really will. It is nothing, a nameless mechanism.

And a will that is totally free is the same. Boundless and and unlimited will basically removes the landscape that this will would function in, and so is not a function.

So why talk of free will or not when the answer is that it is both, and it cannot be any other way, or the concept of will would be meaningless.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 07:11 pm
Arella Mae wrote:
No offense to you, but I find that hogwash. We have free will. We reason and use our experiences to determine our actions. Plain and simple. Unless, of course, I'm missing something in your post. :wink:


Typical theist naivity. There's more to it than "Well I make decisions, so I have free will."
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 07:13 pm
I voted good - could be clearer. However, I wouldn't take the results to seriously - anyone who disagrees is likely to vote poor or average.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:03 pm
Folks, you would do well to understand Cryacuz.
0 Replies
 
 

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