2
   

EADS beats Boeing to US tanker deal

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 11:00 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
If this procurement is to be overturned , it is much more likely the Democrats will do it in the next administration -- the Dems are in a seriously protectionist mood right now. It will be amusing to watch the Europeans discover that they really won't like many of the "changes" ("yes we can") that may be in the offing.


There is no way this contract can be taken away from Airbus without major consequences for American international relations. It also would be highly likely that Boeing would suffer on the commercial side as pissed off governments make sure that Airbus gets their countries orders, even if Airbus does not have the best plane for the job.


I'm not suggesting that overturning it is likely - only that, if it happens, it will be the Democrats who would do it. The spectacle of Obama & Hillary pandering to the protectionist sentiments of voters in Ohio over the "evils" of NAFTA should give pause to thoughtful observers. The consequences of any attempt to renegotiate NAFTA would far exceed the furor over such an aircraft contract, however large it might be. (By the way can you imagine the French government selecting a foreign or (gasp) American contractor for one of its procurements over the national "champion"?)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 12:08 pm
Just a tiny bit to clarify:

Quote:
The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company EADS N.V. (EADS) is a large European aerospace corporation, formed by the merger on July 10, 2000 of DaimlerChrysler Aerospace AG (DASA) of Germany, Aérospatiale-Matra of France, and Construcciones Aeronáuticas SA (CASA) of Spain. The company develops and markets civil and military aircraft, as well as missiles, space rockets, satellites, and related systems. The company is headquartered in the Netherlands in Schiphol-Rijk. The company operates under Dutch law.


Quote:
41.63% of EADS stock is publicly traded on six European stock exchanges, while the remaining 58.37% is owned by a "Contractural Partnership".
The latter is owned by SOGEADE (27.38%), Daimler AG (22.41%), SEPI (5.46%) and Dubai Holding (3.12%).
SOGEADE is owned by the French State and Lagardère, while SEPI is a Spanish state holding company. France also owns 0.06% of publicly traded stock.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 12:52 pm
Thus the government of France owns about 16% of EADS, which is indeed one of its industrial "national champions" - their term.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 12:54 pm
Daimler AG:
Quote:

36.7% Germany
36.2% Other Europe
19.8% USA
7.30% Rest of world
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 01:21 pm
If I follow you correctly, that means that U.S. stockholders (not the U.S. government) own 19.8% of Damlier AG, which in turn owns 22.41% of a partnership that itself owns 58.37% of EADS.

Thus, private U.S. stockholders own 2.6% of EADS. So what???
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 01:33 pm
I kind of have an inside source. They say Boing had to much scandal last year. Some Boing executives did some prison time over "favors" and bribes.

And thats why they lost the vote. Thats the hear say.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 01:37 pm
Amigo wrote:
I kind of have an inside source. They say Boing had to much scandal last year. Some Boing executives did some prison time over "favors" and bribes.


From an outside source, that's going on since 2003, the scandal is well known..
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 02:55 pm
Maybe I should get outside more.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 06:40 am
Amigo wrote:
Maybe I should get outside more.
Smile ok ready amigo boing boing bon
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 03:10 pm
Boeing sets stage for formal protest of $35B tanker award

Quote:
Boeing Co. on Monday inched closer to formally protesting a $35 billion Air Force tanker award it lost, saying it has "serious concerns" about the fairness of the competition.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 03:20 pm
Protests on competitive government procurements such as this one are fairly common, and there are a number of arcane issues on which they can be based. In this case the financial stakes are very high as are the political implications in an election year. (Clearly the Administration was not playing a political game in the selection).

The now several year old issue of conflict of interest on the part of a senior Defense Department employee who subsequently became a Boeing employee and other associated issues may or may not play a part - hard to tell now.

It is a safe bet that several of the politicians who are now crying foul, notably including Rep Norm Dicks, (D) WA were already deeply involved in earlier attempts to steer sole source tanker contracts to Boeing. Hard in these cases to distinguish the good guys from the bad.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 04:33 pm
bought the NYT at the newsstand today .
it seems to me that airbus/northrop by widely spreading production of parts for the tanker throughout several U.S. states - and other foreign suppliers - they've put themselves in a pretty good position against any attacks from boeing .
quite a few states would be upset if the decision were to be changed now .
it looks to me as if boeing thought they couldn't lose as long as they just submitted a bid - they must have thought that they already had the inside track .
hbg


Quote:
The Air Force, meanwhile, insists that it chose the better plane.

Sue C. Payton, the assistant secretary of the Air Force, at a contentious hearing before the Defense Appropriations subcommittee last week, said: "Northrop Grumman brought their A game." Northrop is based in Los Angeles.

Ms. Payton also disagreed with assertions that the Air Force had tipped the scales for Airbus. She said officials had carefully followed procurement rules and an array of laws, including the Buy American Act, which she noted calls for certain countries, including Western European allies, to be treated as if they were the United States.

"Let me say I view Northrop Grumman as an American company," she said. "I view General Electric, who has jobs from this in Ohio and North Carolina, as an American company. I view the folks in Mobile, Alabama, and Melbourne, Florida, as Americans. But that did not enter into my decision here."

"You said we want a fair and open competition under the laws," she told the panel. "I complied with those laws."


General Electric is to make the engines and Northrop Grumman expects to hire hundreds of engineers in Melbourne for the Airbus group's tanker, which will be assembled in Mobile, Ala.

The victory on the Air Force contract could mark the arrival of Airbus as a major builder of tankers after decades of dominance by Boeing, which manufactured the only widely used boom.

The Boeing spokesman, Mr. Barksdale, said his company could easily pull together the new boom it promised the Air Force. "It's not a huge leap of technology," he said. "It would not be a huge deal."

But to Northrop Grumman and EADS, building the boom on spec presented a chance to demonstrate their competitive hunger.

"They had to start from scratch," said Tim Gann, a retired Air Force tanker pilot and group commander who now works for the Airbus group, EADS North America. "Up until we developed our boom, only Boeing had a boom. Boeing wasn't going to sell us the boom."


source :
AIRFORCE TANKER
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 05:51 pm
The universal opinion is that Boeing assumed that they could not lose. I also have read an opinion that Boeing felt that by getting rid of McDonald Douglas by buying them would mean that contracts such as this tanker contract would in effect become in effect no bid contracts, because no other company could meet the American made part of the contract. Boeing is now the only maker of large frame aircraft in America. Boeing felt that they could put out what ever crap they wanted to build, and over charge for it.

Airbus hustled and figured out how to meet the American made part of the contract. Boeing has been going the other way, outsourcing more and more of the work over seas. At this point there is not a whole lot of difference between which deal would produce the most American jobs. People assume that it would be Boeing, and it would be, but not by much.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 12:21 am
Boeing files protest over tanker choice Very Happy
By Peter Pae, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
March 12, 2008

source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tanker12mar12,1,4519650.story
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 03:43 am
http://i31.tinypic.com/2mhvnrn.jpg
Source: Chicago Tribune, 12.03.08, page 25
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 05:27 pm
Our kids are fighting on the front and the Blue Bloods are taking our jobs. Boy this sure ain't my grandfathers war.

George Washington just turned in his grave!

Cheney and some Blue Bloods are probably laghing it up over a couple of cocktails in Dubai>
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2008 04:46 pm
Quote:
Government Cites Litany of Errors in Tanker Award

By Dana Hedgpeth and Robert O'Harrow Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 26, 2008; Page D03

The Air Force bungled its biggest procurement deal to spend $40 billion to buy new aerial refueling tankers to replace its aging fleet, federal investigators declared last week. But what wasn't publicly known until yesterday was just how badly they did so.

In a 67-page review, the Government Accountability Office sharply criticized the Air Force for a litany of contracting transgressions, including everything from failing to follow its own evaluation criteria to miscalculating the maintenance costs, size and amount of fuel a plane could carry and holding unfair discussions with one of the bidders.

The competition featured Northrop Grumman and its partner, European Aeronautic Defence and Space, which won the deal Feb. 29, beating out Boeing. It was a bitter loss for Boeing, which built the Air Force's existing tanker nearly 50 years ago. It lodged a protest.

When they announced the winner, Air Force officials said repeatedly that they'd run an "incredibly open and transparent" process that would withstand any legal challenges.

But the GAO report made public yesterday differed about as sharply as could be imagined.


It found that the Air Force's selection process was so misguided that it was "undermined by a number of prejudicial errors that call into question the Air Force's decision."

Along the way, the Air Force seemed to guide Northrop through some pitfalls. In one instance, the Air Force first told Boeing that it had satisfied one set of objectives, but later, after discussions had been closed, decided that it had not. But the Air Force told Northrop about objectives it had not met, allowing that company to change its proposal and meet the requirements.

"It is a fundamental precept of negotiated procurements that discussions, when conducted, must be meaningful, equitable, and not misleading," the GAO said in its assessment. The GAO said the Air Force "treated the firms unequally" in holding discussions with one but not the other.

"This is a damning report," said David Berteau, a senior defense analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It is baffling to me: how did so many smart people at high levels at the Pentagon come to the conclusion that the process was so well done and announce a winner, and then we see a GAO report that gives them a black eye in running a smooth, fair procurement process."

The GAO's report is not an evaluation of the merits of the two aircraft; it is essentially a technical critique of the Air Force's acquisition process. It sharply criticized the Air Force for not following the evaluation criteria it set out and said that "judgments in the evaluation of proposals must be reasonable and must bear a rational relationship to the announced criteria."

Top Pentagon and Air Force acquisition officials met with Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates yesterday to discuss how to deal with the contract. The GAO has essentially recommended that the Air Force start the procurement process from scratch.

Boeing's stock closed down $5.15 to $69.64 yesterday.

After the Air Force awarded the contract, which could be worth as much as $100 billion over the next two decades to the Northrop team, Boeing filed a protest with the GAO on March 11, arguing that its aircraft was unfairly evaluated. Congressional leaders, many of whom represent areas where Boeing has major operations, have rallied to get the Air Force to reconsider its decision and have threatened to withhold funding from the tanker program.

"This decision boils down to the fact that the Air Force ran a tanker competition that was neither transparent nor fair," said Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.). "This decision is as damning as it is unprecedented. I want to know how the Air Force got this so wrong. Whether it was incompetence or impropriety, clearly the process was completely mishandled."

The GAO said Boeing should be reimbursed for its attorneys fees and the costs of filing the protest.

It was clear in its judgment that the competition was almost a dead heat.

"But for these errors, we believe that Boeing would have had a substantial chance of being selected for award," the document concluded.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/25/AR2008062501534.html?hpid=sec-business

I am not much a fan of the modern GAO but even so given this report I am changing my opinion on this matter. I never dreamed that the process was as screwed up as it now it appears that it was. I know that the airforce will be hurting if they need to wait an extra year or two for the program to start but it is their own fault. It was partly the Air Force's fault last time as well because they should have known that Boeing had corrupted the bidding process, and should have done something about it.

This contract needs to be totally rebid, correctly this time, and I hope that the process can be expedited in a fair manor. I also hope that at the end of all of this torture that America gets the quality tanker that we deserve and at a fair price.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 11:53 pm
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/opinion/29sun1.html?hp
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2008 07:00 pm
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/business/10tanker.html?hp
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2008 10:16 pm
I think it is a bit hard to muster any sympathy for the European manufacturers. For decades our NATO allies regularly failed to meet their committments for military spending on new systems, relying on the United States to take up the slack, particularly in areas like airlift, logistics and tanker aircraft. American taxpayers carried a disproportionate share of the load for the defense of Europe throughout the Cold war. European countries went to great lengths to internalize what spending they did authorize, and to replace equipment purchases from the U.S. with European sources as quickly as possible. Now they feel they are entitled to a "share" of our own purchases. Truly a case of utterly shameless whining on their part. Screw them !

All bidders for such contracts are very careful to distribute sourcing for components in key Congressional districts throughout the country. In the modern world all large manufacturers outsource component design and manufacture as much as possible -- it lowers cost, promotes efficiency and generates better ideas and more innovation. Airbus does less of it only because it is partly managed by the governments of its respective partners, and local politics drives such decisions. Hamburger is merely making a virtue of their necessity in this area.

I hope Boeing wins.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Leveraged Loan - Discussion by gollum
Web Site - Discussion by gollum
Corporate Fraud - Discussion by gollum
Enron Scandal - Discussion by gollum
Buying From Own Pension Fund - Discussion by gollum
iPhones - Question by gollum
Paycheck Protection Plan - Question by gollum
Dog Sniffing Electronics - Question by gollum
SIM CARD - SimTraveler - Question by gollum
Physical Bitcoin - Question by gollum
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/10/2024 at 07:32:25