Perfection

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Read this first for background.

This

This is to discuss perfection

neologist wrote:

Atheist101 wrote:
neologist wrote:
Atheist101 wrote:
neologist wrote:
If Adam and Eve had been perfect, as the bible asserts, then familial intermarriage would not have had the negative effects it has today.

If they were perfect why did they eat the "apple"?
At what point did we become imperfect? perfect parents have perfect children have perfect grndchildren...
Another question might relate to the one called Satan:

If he was perfect, why would he incite the rebellion?

Can you spell 'free will'?

avoiding my question with a question of your own, ay.
Where does it say in the Bible that Satan was perfect? I thought that he was kicked out of heaven, therefore not perfect.
And anyways what is 'perfect'? How can something be 'perfect'?
Not kicked out of heaven right away. He was still there during the time of Job.

Do you wish to digress from the thread for a discussion of the word 'perfect' or would you just accept the fact that the bible claims God and his creations to be perfect and argue about the truth of the statement later?

Are you saying here that man is perfect?

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What would be your standard? Consider a cue ball.

For the purpose of playing a game of 8 ball, an ordinary cue ball would be perfect, wouldn't you say?

Yet, if you were to examine the surface under a microscope, you might be inclined to say otherwise.

Then consider man's relation to God. If we had been created and programmed to complete obedience, would you consider that a perfect situation? I hear the words robot and puppet rumbling off my keyboard. Oh wait, now I see them.

If we accept the premise that God is perfect, yet is willing to allow his creatures the free will to choose disobedience, it raises a lot of issues that have yet to be resolved. I'll try to list a few;

1] Does God have the right to demand obedience from his creation?

2] Would sentient creatures serve God out of selfishness or out of love?

3] Does God have the power to complete his purpose despite the rebellion?

I assert that the 'perfect' God has the right to demand obedience. He created us; he ought to know what is best for us; and he claims to have love for us.

Both Job and Jesus, as well as others, have answered #2 on the side of love.

As far as # 3 is concerned - well, let some others stir this pot for a while.

edited

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neoligist

Quote... Does God have the right to demand obedience from his creation. Unquote.....
No, not if he gives the Christians, the so called "free will".

Quote... would sentient creatures serve God out of selfishness or out of love.Unquote.
No, not unless they were Christians and believed the Bibbe.

Does God have the power to complete his purpose despite the rebellion. No, not if he gave the so called"free will".

So if you stuck yourself with your bibbley God you ain't got no choice... free will or not.. cause you poor sods are so self indoctrinated you will get your bibble out and prove to yourself anything you desire, no matter how weird it is.

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Prove what you desire . . .

Hmm.

Who would do that?

You speak of those whom you believe desire reward.

What of those who desire license?

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neologist wrote:

What would be your standard? Consider a cue ball.

For the purpose of playing a game of 8 ball, an ordinary cue ball would be perfect, wouldn't you say?

Yet, if you were to examine the surface under a microscope, you might be inclined to say otherwise.

Then consider man's relation to God. If we had been created and programmed to complete obedience, would you consider that a perfect situation? I hear the words robot and puppet rumbling off my keyboard. Oh wait, now I see them.

If we accept the premise that God is perfect, yet is willing to allow his creatures the free will to choose disobedience, it raises a lot of issues that have yet to be resolved. I'll try to list a few;

1] Does God have the right to demand obedience from his creation?

2] Would sentient creatures serve God out of selfishness or out of love?

3] Does God have the power to complete his purpose despite the rebellion?

I assert that the 'perfect' God has the right to demand obedience. He created us; he ought to know what is best for us; and he claims to have love for us.

Both Job and Jesus, as well as others, have answered #2 on the side of love.

As far as # 3 is concerned - well, let some others stir this pot for a while.

edited

I think you've touched on a good point here.
I think you will agree with me that no one, save possibly God, would be completely perfect. But could something be perfect for their purpose?
Then again, could any being that is not completely perfect have the right to be perfect?

As for your questions.

1. Yes. A being who can be called God must have the power to do anything. But whether he would is a different question, one to which I would answer no.

2 Are you talking Pascal's Wagar selfishness. Because I think a high percentage of Christians are Christian in fear of hell. I agree some, like Jesus, Job and some loving Christians, do love Him in love.

3. What rebellion, what purpose?

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Atheist101 wrote:

. . . What rebellion, what purpose?

The word satan, means rebel or resister.

God's purpose was stated in Genesis 1:28:
"God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."

If that is true then, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death.

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Perfect is a concept of man and is not referable to God.

Would you say that the universe is perfect? What about the collisions of galaxies within the universe? Are they part of that perfection?

What about man? Is man perfect? i think man is perfect (even with all of his "imperfections") as man but imperfect if he is supposed to be a dog.

Man has the tendency to perceive perfect vs imperfect similarly to the concept of good and evil. In reality there is no imperfection or evil.

Good/evil perfect/imperfection are simply the two sides of the coin called reality. No matter which side turns up it is still part of the positive furtherance of existence.

Just because man "perceives" an outcome as negative does not make it so.

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Perfection

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