Which water softener to go for?

Re: Which water softener to go for?

Oh boy BiBi! This is going to be interesting! I came here early December when my 28 year old softener finally gave up the ghost. I had to get another one quickly as xmas (and its guests) was fast approaching. I put in some long days surfing the net for info and I stumbled into this site.

In my naivety I made my first post and the rest, they say, is history. Mainly three resident "experts" gave me their info. I put "experts" in quotation marks as they collectively agree on very little and a couple of them get a bit testy with each other.

If you're going to use my post and its ensuing saga for your info and entertainment I suggest you start at the end and work forward! Trust me!

To cut a long story short I chose a Clack valve softener from a mail order softener company up here in Canada. There are two main types of valves that quite a few softeners use (the valve is the main part) and they are made by Fleck and Clack. I guess some softeners have proprietary valves (I'm not sure who but I'll guess Culligan does) and you're probably linked to them forever for parts and service. I'm not into that stuff as I'm a big D-I-Y fan and do all my own work on almost everything.

The experts here tend not to agree whether Clack or Fleck is the best valve and I won't get into that battle. Let's just say I wanted a Clack.

Mine arrived on a truck and in two hours I had it installed and running. If you're reading my thread in the other post you'll see that in two months of ownership I've yet to get a week's soft water out of it. This has led to massive frustration and much programing of the onboard computer. But last week I had my Eureka!! and found that I'd lost half my resin (the stuff that softens the water) through (in MY opinion anyway) a part not being properly fitted when assembled at my mail-order dealer. One of the prolific posters (Gary Slusser; you will meet him) doesn't quite agree with me but, as said before, it's tough to get two people on this forum to agree with anything. None the less, Gary has been a constant help as have the other players "justalurker and "H20_Man".

I told my mail order chap about my problems today and he's shipping me some new resin to (hopefully!) cure all my problems.

Recently I found a local water softener dealer (Water Depot) who only deals in Clack units and I've had a few discussions about the poor performance of mine and he's tested my water many times. I now wish I had bought from him as he wasn't that much more $ and he's a five minute drive across town. My mail order place is two hours away, not that it matters.

But, as said above, the problems with my unit was an oddball occurence and should be NO reflection on the Clack valve unit. I find the unit very easy to program (it takes me seconds now that I'm an expert) and it was very easy for me to install.

So I'm dragging up a chair to watch this thread develop BiBi. Don't be afraid to ask me questions, either here or via PM, and I'll answer at length from my newby semi-clueless (I think Gary thinks I'm clueless!) perspective.

These guy have been around a while and know softeners (Gary won't agree that the other guys know anything but he really is lovable!) so you will gain the knowledge you need to make YOUR decision - as I did.

Edit - my water is 20 grains hard and a softener for that or your 26 grains will run you under $1000. I know nothing of chlorine.

Have fun!

Let me jump in on this discussion too please. I'm also looking for a new softener, we just built a home and have 21 grain water. I installed a Kenmore at my old home and had no problems with it until right before we sold the house (how's that for timing!). The unit was about 10 years old.

Anyway I'm looking at Culligan, Ecowater, Kenmore, Whirlpool and GE. From the limited research I've done it appears that all of the aformentioned are manufactured by the same company except the Culligan unit. Can anyone confirm?

My new home has 10' ceilings in the basement and no floor drains...so I'll need to run the drain up the wall and over to the stand pipe on the sewer line where the AC condensate is connected. From everything I've read online it appears that you cannot run a drain greater than 8' off the floor. It makes sense since the water pressure is all that drains the tank but what the heck am I to do??? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Expand your shopping list.

_________________
WHAT CAN H2O MAN DO FOR YOU?

Thanks Zozzie for your feedbacks on water softeners
Thank you for very detailed info. Unfortunately I'm not a DIY person and I just want to get one unit that I can have it set and forget about it (except refilling the salt). I'd rather to pay more if this is a solid unit and can last for long time without headaches. Just I'm not sure if more expensive one will be the better one. Sometimes things are not like that you know.

Re: Thanks Zozzie for your feedbacks on water softeners

I'm far from being an expert. A suggestion for you, based on the knowledge I gained in the last two months and your comments here - why not find a local Clack or Fleck dealer and have them install and program it for you? You'll have one of the top units and get away for about $1000.

Re: Which water softener to go for?


wow at 3600 you can get a new kenmore every 5-6 years and probably still make out

To luckydriver
I know! However, I don't want to deal with all the mess after the water softener breaks down. I did quite some research online. Those from Sears are designed to start breaking down as early as 2 years.

Where to find the local dealer for Fleck or Clark?
Hi Zozzie,

Your idea sounds good. Can you please advice where/how I can find the local dealer for Fleck or Clark? I live in San Jose, CA?

Thanks a lot!

Re: Where to find the local dealer for Fleck or Clark?

BiBi, as I'm up here in the Great White North I can't be of much use to you. I did a ton of Googling before I bought mine and found me a mail-order place 2hrs from here. After I got it, I found (sigh!) a storefront dealer across town.

Here is the Clack (Clack, not Clark!) Corporation site -

http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm

Why not look underwater (under Water, get it?) in the Yeller Pages? My local Water Depot sells only Clack units and they seem like decent people -

http://www.waterdepotinc.com/

No-one seems to advertise the type of valve (the most important part of the unit by far) that they use and I had to ask. Of course most softener purchasers don't have a flippin' clue about the make of valve used in their units. I raised a few eyebrows when I mentioned the word 'Clack'.

About Fleck I know little except what the experts here argue about. There's a couple of big threads about these softeners below and the experts get their licks in. The threads gave me much info not to mention amusement. :wink:

Re: Which water softener to go for?

The brand names you mention are not the only or best choices and you are looking at two different types of softeners, normal and a twin tank type. About 99% of the people that have a twin tank type softener do not need them. They are used when water is going t obe used on a more or less constant basis 24/7. Like in a 24 hour car wash, laundromat, restaurant etc. where a normal softener would allow hard water past it during regenerations during the wee hours of early morning.

Non electric is not a benefit unless you listen to a Kinetico salesman. For at least 100+ years we have had electronics all over the world and in space, undersea, in all types of machines and they are very reliable or the world would come to a stop. And those people tha tsay we can't depend on the electrical and electronic control valves on a water softener are simply attempting to victimize they susceptible and very gullible consumer. And then, charge a very high, and IMO ripoff price for their non-electric control valve. BTW, that is the only part of teh whle softener that is Kinetico, all the rest is the same tanks and resin other companies use except for teh Ecowater made Kenmore, Whirlpool, GE, North Star and mortonsalt.com brands. They use a different and non industry standard type resin tank, and control valve.

I suggest you decide if you want to be a DIYer and buy equipment and install and repair it yourself or if you want to be tied to and dependent on a local dealer. If you want to be independent, then look for a correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve. Zozzie took my suggestion and although he has had a problem with his softener, it is not control valve related.

BTW, plumbers don't know water treatment, find a dealer that you can trust to know what they are doing or DIY.

Re: Which water softener to go for?

You mention me in here so I'll give Bibi another $0.10 of my findings and opinions. I'm very wary of any salesperson's claims and take most of them (wait for the massive pun here!) with a grain of salt. I can't believe I said that! The water treatment industry (as with car sales, insurance and retro fit windows) doesn't have a very good track record. When I hear prices on this forum of $3000 for a water conditioner I shake my head. But poor slobs are buying these every day.

I did a lot of very rushed homework, blew through the Home Depot where the "associate" knew nothing of the boxed unit on his shelf and I passed though the local Water Depot where the lady on the desk (the bossman wasn't around) had never heard the word "Clack" that I dropped. After I bought my unit mail order (not from Gary but up here in Canada) I found that that local Water Depot ONLY sold Clack-head softeners. Dohhh! I would have bought from them just for the fact that I could talk to them in person.

But what I've found in talking to both my M/O dealer and the local storefront guy is that, probably to save themselves any combacks and callbacks, that they advise setting up the softener in a very conservative and wasteful condition. I will explain.

Please don't correct me on my figures here. I'm just using them as an example. I bought a 1 cu ft unit based on low family numbers (2), low water usage (in hindsight - 84gpd for both of us). This unit, when programed to its maximum capacity will give about 30,000 grains of softening ability when 15 lbs of salt is used per regeneration. I gave both the sellers my info and they BOTH suggested 10lbs of salt and to set the compu at 28,000 grains on a 1 cu ft unit.

So I do my homework and find (from the onboard Diagnostics in my Clack) that we use an average of 84 gpd (this is very low) which with a 20 grains hardness needs 1680 grains per day of softening ability or 13440 per week. That's a WHOLE lot less than the 28,000 that they suggested. I can easily generate 13440 with 4lbs of salt. Which is about 60% less than what they suggested.

But as Gary mentioned, and is well docummented in my thread, I had a valve assembly issue (top resin basket not locked in place, 1/2 my resin has been flushed during the Backwash cycle) and I've yet to receive a full week of soft water. New resin is supposed to be on its way.

Where I'm going with all this is to advise the original poster BiBi from my hindsight. BiBi, if you haven't done so already, read through the threads here on this fine forum, even the sniping between the experts, and absorb all they say. Then you will get a general feeling of what is out there and depending on your comfort factor and mechanical ability, you will make your choice based on knowledge gained.

Before you do shop around, try messing around with Gary's sizer and calculator on his website -

http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

When armed with this info you will be better armed when a salesperson (mail order OR storefront) starts to tell you stuff. Hopefully you will be able to sort bull from truth.

Then when you do have your unit, don't blindly accept any standardized settings. Learn how to program your unit and how to tailor it for YOU. I can't speak about Fleck and I won't put Fleck down in any way as I know nothing about them but with my Clack I can go into Diagnostics and see weeks of history of water usage like max flow rate, gallons used, days used etcetera. This only helps with your databank of knowledge.

Also - get a sample of your water tested. Like an idiot (I didn't know better) I let my M/O guy tell me what my hardness was. He told me it was 12.5 grains. I finally got it tested - it's 20.

Have fun Bibi. I am but then I'm a techno-sponge.

Threads -

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110675
http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26274
http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=109578

Re: Thanks Zozzie for your feedbacks on water softeners


You are not alone, the vast majority of homeowners feel exactly the way you do.

Look no further than your local ECOwater dealer.

In my professional opinion ECOwater offers the finest H2O systems available.
ECOwater makes over 95% of all the components use to assemble the systems they sell.
The quality, quality control, product, and service are outstanding.

Re: Thanks Zozzie for your feedbacks on water softeners

Water_Man, what are the head units on these? Do they make their own?

Re: Thanks Zozzie for your feedbacks on water softeners


It is a proprietary design that they produce in-house.
No piston - they use Teflon coated disc.

And they are cheap to produce and quality wise. You will never find one of the big box versions in commercial establishes; unless the owner doesn't know what they are doing. I'm told the big box versions DO NOT have a Teflon coated disc, that it's soft easily worn ABS plastic.

Why do the big box brands all come with a 90 day to 3 years warranty? And the 3 yrs is on the TANKS!!

Fleck Clack and Autotrol valves are used in residential, commercial and small industrial; 3/4" to 3" inlet outlet. And you can't beat a piston, seals and spacers design like Clack and Fleck. That design happens to be the world's oldest and most sold not only in the US but around the world.

But... since all those big box and the Ecowater brand are built in house and like 99% of the whole thing (not including the resin), why does the Ecowater brand cost so much more than the $499 Whirlpool, Kenmore, North Star, GE, or mortonsalt.com etc.? I say it's to make the dealer and his salesmen more money.

Sounds like sour grapes because you can't compete.

I lost track. Is this WWIII (Water Wars for the newbies here), IV or V?

Yeah! Hit the jackpot!
Zozzie,

Thanks a lot for your helps! I'm lucky enough to find out one of our local plumbing company is carrying Fleck and my neighbor is using them as well. I'm so glad that I can get a peace of mind by getting the Fleck installed by an experienced plumber. They also have 5 yr parts warrenty and 1 yr labor which is not too bad.

Really appreciate you share your experience with me. You're a great help!

Re: Yeah! Hit the jackpot!

Great stuff BiBi. Just do your calculations and tailor the softener's ability for your personal needs so you don't waste salt and I'm sure you'll be fairly happy even with a Fleck!!