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Inordinate dependance on logic

 
 
cavfancier
 
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Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2003 07:23 pm
Bo, I completely agree, the pursuit of logic is the opposite of searching for happiness. I believe that the desire to seek happiness is entirely illogical, more based on instincts, emotions, feelings, than anything else, and it's not a bad thing at all. Also, I have plenty of fibre in my diet. In fact, I took several logical dumps today, much to the appreciation of my bowels Twisted Evil
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2003 09:56 pm
Happiness is an emotion and logic a form of reasoning. What is the connection you guys are establishing between the two?
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 11:06 am
Certainly, how can we make any decision without reasoning? But that's the Freudian in me. It can and, IMO, is logical to seek pure logic for some people. If it's a method to avoid pain, and it's worked in the past (however with bad side effects) or if it seemed to be the only solution when it was developed (at a time when a person was more helpless) then it makes sense to seek to avoid pain and to avoid knowledge of it.....it's an attempt to win like everything else in life. I'm pretty sure there's a syllogism in there somewhere. Now what did I do with that Logic book?.......

And Cav, I couldn't disagree more with you about the logic of seeking happiness. But I may be misunderstanding you as I was Bo. But the way I see it, if it's based on instincts, wishes and feelings in what way would it not be logical? But I do agree with you that there's nothing bad about this kind of logic. Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is human, not wrong. I do it everyday. Am doing it now. But then that's only my opinion, and I may be wrong. :wink:
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:59 pm
I think what Cav and i are trying to point out is that 'happiness' is a state of being' not an emotion; emotions such as pleasure, and joy, surely are indicaters that we are in this state, as fear, or sorrow, indicate we are not, but there is no garanteed route to happiness, per se, but to do what pleases you, and does not displease those around you, in hopes of happiness "happening".Laughing
Look for happiness under every rock, and eventually something will bite you! Crying or Very sad
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:02 pm
Bogowo,
I beg to differ with "reasoning without feeling is illogical"
Because feeling without reasoning has caused much suffering in the world today Exclamation

For instance, Africa!

The Western world, aka Albert Schwitzer et al, brought modern (western) health care to millions.
Consequently, due to pre natal care and a few calories and vitamins, more pregnancies were brought to term.
Due to more advanced child care and a few more calories more children survived than would have under "normal" circumstances.
Technology without education brought more poverty; and guns, and politics.

Now millions of people are suffering and dying of starvation, wars, displacements etc.

Would not it have been kinder if these millions had never been born or raised till the size of weaponry fit their physique. (till they could carry a gun or a body bomb)

The wars and genocides in Congo, Ethiopia, Rwanda,and Sudan, amongst others, should be laid at the feet of those (primarily religious institutions) who insured that people would be born and survive long enough to kill somebody else.

What is the point of "Save the Children" (a charity) if when they are saved there are no jobs for them, no place for them to live, and nobody to educate them so that they can make their way in the world Question Question

I suggest that all persons who wish to provide pre natal care, vaccinations and food for children be required to post a bond sufficient to ensure an education and a commensurate job for the children that they, in, their infernal wisdom, have decided to keep alive!

The cruelty of a person who is willing to save a child but unwilling to provide a place for him as he grows to adulthood is simply to terrible to contemplate.

If one thinks that we will have a place for him (the surviving child) just check the immigration rules in Canada, the US, England, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, and a few other countries that still have some room and some opportunities.

So for those reasons, although "pure logic" is cold it causes much less suffering amongst humanity than "pure emotion (feelings).
Respectfully submitted for your perusal, Mech



Damn, that seems cold doesn't it? But the results would be nicer for everybody, probably even the "unborn".
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 08:23 pm
Cold, and courageous, for you to say it, Mech;

I agree with virtually everything you say, except i feel (and i do mean 'feel') that you are confusing 'stupidity' with emotion.

Shortsightedness is not an affliction of the heart!

What is needed is the 'wisdom' to apply compassion 'logically'!
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 08:53 pm
Bo, I do believe we agree.....it seems it's semantics we're discussing. It was this sentence that Cav wrote, "I believe that the desire to seek happiness is entirely illogical." I agree that happiness is a state of being of which feelings are a part. But I don't think that the desire to seek happiness is illogical. If may be that it's so basic to human nature that it's a mute point to say it's logical. But defining terms goes beyond the subject of this thread. But these are interesting thoughts......
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twyvel
 
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Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 08:17 am
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 06:02 pm
Bogowo, re "confusing stupidity with emotion"

Possibly I do confuse stupidity with emotion occasionally. But if we carry this thought a bit further than this would imply that the degree that a person thinks illogically would indicate to a fair degree that persons propensity to perform stupidily when given a position that has severe ramifications over the lives and quality of the lives of other persons.

Allowing emotions to overcome logic seems to be an all to human propensity. We build hospitals when we should be building schools. When the survivors are schooled there will be the desire and ability to build the hospitals, clinics, and other worthwhile projects.

When I accuse Mother Theresa, most of the churches, and many of the other "helpful persons" of a terrible cruelty in putting the "cart before the horse" and fostering hope when there can be none thus leading to the desperation that prompts one person to take up arms against another, I become the crazy one! Confused

Go figure---- Mech
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 07:26 pm
Again Mech, we mesh; i find your logic impeccable.
However there is one little nit to pick:

"Allowing emotions to overcome logic seems to be an all to human propensity."
quite so; but, if occassionally we do not 'bow to the emotions', there soon may be no 'young people' around for us to worry about suitable examples for.
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2003 10:21 am
Yes, I'm for bowing to the emotions from time to time Laughing
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2003 06:46 pm
Let us not confuse lust, a normal sensual stimulation required for procreation with either emotion or logic.

Bully goats and jack asses have a considerable libido but the emotions involved in their sexual behaviors seem more logical than emotional. If sexual activities were illogical then Darwin would soon describe the adjustments to populations that would necessarily come about. (look up "Shakers" as a religious group for some statistical outlooks)

Mother child bonding, semi continuous estrus, pride of possesions, and long adolescence are all survival features evolving with and contemporary with the intelligence particularily being regarded as a "survival strategy" in humans.

I tend to think that there is no actual thing as emotion per se, IMO it all comes down to a survival strategy for an intelligent animal. Despite the fact that often I feel love, kind, altrustic, envious, passionate, guilty, and the whole gamut of what are called emotions they, WHEN NORMAL, generally contribute to the well being of their subgroup of humanity, they are survival strategies for an intelligent being, plain and simple.

In former times this was sufficient, judging from the success of the human genome.

Whether the survival of logic and intelligence is dependent upon the genome, or whether the genome is dependent upon the survival of logic and intelligence is a question for another thread Exclamation

Now I fear that simply emotion is inadequate to the task. All humans belong to one subgroup (residents of Earth) Hopefully logic, with an awareness of its limitations will be sufficient to stave off Armageddon long enough for us to spread out through the universe.

Logically, I have some stake in the outcome, but I'm mostly curious Smile I doubt that I will ever see either Armageddon or a starship.

So how can we spread the teachings of logic throughout the world?

By appealing to the emotions, natch Confused Mech
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