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Where is the economy going 2 (to)?

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 08:44 pm
Pg 2:
My brother's base pay is $3000/month. On top of that is a housing allowance, utility allowance, clothing allowance, petrol allowance etc that amounts to $5000/month, tax-free. His monthly cash-flow income is $8000. He and his family get free medical care. So his annual "income" amounts to around $100,000.
Being career, he will also get a pension and lifetime VA benefits.

But wait! There is more!

In October, the band went to Croatia. They stayed in a 5-star hotel, played two concerts and drank a lot of beer. He got "combat pay" of $350 and his salary for that month became tax-exempt.

So he is at quite a bit over $100,000/year. Multiply that by 60 members of the band, and you get $6,000,000/year before the costs of the instruments and the travel. Muliply that by the number of bands the military has and...
I have nothing against music but, really, is this where our military dollars should be going?

I raised this issue when I visited them in San Antonio. I thought I was going to end up sleeping in the garage.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 09:31 pm
LOL, glad to see a buddy having the same disputes with siblings about one thing or another; mine happens to be politics and religion. But they would never think of throwing me out into the streets. I believe.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 01:30 pm
The senate is going into their usual squabbles about the rebates to help Americans, because they are just plain stupid! If they want to tack on other stuff after they approve the current house plan, checks can be sent out sooner, but they want to hold up the checks to win some stupid argument.

They're hopeless bunch of idiots in everything they do!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 02:16 pm
Here's the real crisis in our country, and our president and congress thinks $500-$600 per taxpayer rebate is going to solve our major economic problems. A bunch of idiots in our government.



Homes in foreclosure rose 79% in '07
Updated 44m ago |


In December alone, foreclosure filings soared 97% from the same month a year earlier to 215,749. It was the fifth consecutive month in which foreclosure filings topped more than 200,000, RealtyTrac said.

USA 2,203,295 75%

LOS ANGELES (AP) ?- The number of U.S. homes that slipped into some stage of foreclosure in 2007 was 79% higher than in the previous year, a real estate tracking company said Tuesday. Many homeowners started to fall behind on mortgage payments in the last three months, setting the stage for more foreclosures this year.
About 1.3 million homes received foreclosure-related warnings last year, up from 717,522 in 2006, Irvine-based RealtyTrac Inc. said. Foreclosure filings rose 75% from the previous year to 2.2 million.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 06:54 pm
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
But they would never think of throwing me out into the streets.


oh , they may THINK it allright - you just hope they'll never do it Laughing

GOMER PYLE : "surprise , surprise , surprise ! "
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 06:56 pm
Yeah, I know, it's like a box of chocolates....
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Debacle
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 07:07 pm
Jim wrote:


What I suppose is going to happen is we're all going to get a check from the government of debased dollars borrowed from China. Then most people will turn around and buy Chinese made consumer goods at Walmart with the money, and somehow this will benefit the economy (or more likely buy votes in November).

Instead, we could build windmills and solar power plants with the borrowed money. At least then we would have non-polluting kilowatts to show for it, and a few permanent jobs created.


Re, buying Chinese goods with borrowed Chinese dollars: this is precisely what Mike Huckabee's response was to the proposed stimulus package. Huckabee said he'd prefer to see the money, albeit funds borrowed from China (seeing our government is far beyond Chapter 7, my own analysis, not MH's), but as I was saying before I interrupted myself, he'd prefer seeing the money spent on infrastructure here at home, using American labor and materials. He mentioned, as an example, I-95 being in need of major refurbishing, with some 1/3rd of the US population living within 100 miles of it. That may have been a subtle hint of pork aimed at certain primary voters, but still it indicates Huckabee's thinking is more lucid and more longterm than is the administration's on this matter.

One other point: it's a misnomer to refer to this handout as a tax rebate. How can the government refund anything they've already spent many times over. Of course, everyone who knows the funds will be borrowed realizes it's polit-speak. Like the government has a big stash just waiting to dole out.

However, they do have a printing press, assuming that's not hocked, too.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 07:39 pm
I wouldn't bet a dime that the government presses aren't hocked with borrowed money from China too! Everything else is.

The American public are too stupid to see that we continue to vote in the same "experienced" people into congress who really works for the companies that fund their campaigns. For a few thousand bucks, they end up with million/billion dollar contracts, and we wonder why they're in hock up to their eyeballs. Farm and oil subsidy anyone?
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 01:15 pm
Stock market took off at 2:15 -a minute ago - how much was the cut?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 02:43 pm
I'm guessing a half point.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 03:41 pm
Yes, indeedy, ci. It was 1/2%. Initially the U.S. markets rose sharply, but around 3 pm or a bit later, they drifted down to end pretty much flat.

I would speculate that, upon reflection, the 3/4% surprise cut last week followed by another cut today raised the concern that the Fed is desperately hurling stuff overboard to keep the ship from foundering.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 04:36 pm
Their desperation is showing in no uncertain terms; they've done a very bad job at fiscal management and their fiduciary responsibilities to Americans and all those who once had faith in our country and economy.

And they're supposed to be some of the "smarter" fellows guiding us into this recession.

One of the ways to save our country is to lower mortgage rates, so that those millions of families could refinance their loans. But they're too stupid to understand the important stuff.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 02:15 pm
These guys will never learn the basics of an economy; it's not based on short-term interest rates. It's called "jobs."

Fed forecasts inflation, unemployment By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP Economics Writer
21 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The Federal Reserve on Wednesday lowered its projection for economic growth this year, citing damage from the double blows of a housing slump and credit crunch. It said it also expects higher unemployment and inflation.


The updated forecasts come amid worry by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and his colleagues that the economy could continue to weaken, even after their aggressive interest rate cuts in January, according to minutes of those private deliberations released Wednesday.

"With no signs of stabilization in the housing sector and with financial conditions not yet stabilized, the committee agreed that downside risks to growth would remain even after this action," minutes of the Fed's Jan. 29-30 closed door meeting showed.

The Fed at that session voted to cut a key interest rate by one-half percentage point to 3 percent at that meeting. Just eight day earlier, the Fed, in an emergency session, slashed its rate by a rare three-quarters percentage point. The two rate cuts together marked the most dramatic rate reductions in a single month by the Fed in a quarter century.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 05:53 pm
This thread is shutting down. The original thread got temporairily shut down due to some kind of issue about inappropriate language, if you can imagine that from a bunch of economic wonks. It is now back open as:

Where is the economy headed
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 01:02 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
This thread is shutting down. The original thread got temporairily shut down due to some kind of issue about inappropriate language, if you can imagine that from a bunch of economic wonks. It is now back open as:

Where is the economy headed


The economy is headed downwards at about 30 degrees; too steep to stop with quarter or half point adjustments to the interest rate.

$600 rebate to taxpayers will do nothing to lessen the economic problems of this or any country; it's a stupid way to win votes at the next election cycle.

Drop the middle class tax rates, and increase the tax rates for the wealthy. Increase interest rates on savings, and reduce interest rates on credit cards.

The government should hire workers to maintain and upgrade our infrastructure such as schools, roads, bridges, and commuication systems.

Quit spending 12 billion every month on the war in Iraq.

Increase teacher pay and benefits.

Implement a universal health care system in the US; combine all the best systems now being used by the countries that now offer universal health care.

Discontinue NCLB immediately; it has done more harm than good; most of the dropouts from school are minorities (blacks and Hispanics). Bush never completely funded this federal mandate; it ended up closing schools and influenced the teaching of our students to past tests rather than learn the skills necessary to help the students at all levels of learning. Some teachers and administrators cheated to pass the standards established by state school boards. Let the local school boards establish standards and how to best meet student's needs.

It'll still take many years to reverse the handicaps established by our government in Washingtonn DC.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 05:00 pm
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
Drop the middle class tax rates, and increase the tax rates for the wealthy .


you have some revolutionary ideas there , c.i. !
i seem the recall that leona helmsley told a reporter (biographer ?) that only "poor people pay taxes" .
hbg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 12:44 am
Yes, she did. I believe that statement also got her into trouble.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 11:30 am
Here's the "new" dope on our economy. The mortgage debacle will not end soon, and thousands of families will lose their homes. Most people will influence their investments based on this one issue, and they will be wrong. Our economy is not wholly based on housing, nor is any countries. It's based on what people need to survive from day to day, week to week, and year to year. That means that most established companies with cash will continue to do just fine; it really doesn't matter that their stock price doesn't continue to show increases all the time. What matters is their price/earnings ratio. At today's prices, many are good bargains for the long-term returns.

Remember Japan in the early 90's? They also had a housing bubble, and they were offering 100 year mortgages - essentially transferring their mortgage to their children. When the bubble burst, their economy went into a dive, but guess what? They're still the second largest economy of the world.

There are lessons to be learned by looking at past history, and also looking at what makes up our economy today vs the past.

The rules of investing such as a bad January bodes badly for the rest of the year is archaic thinking; look at what business is doing to remain competitive in the domestic and world markets, and how the large companies are doing. Many are projecting the hiring of more employees. That's a positive sign for all economies.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:22 pm
a rather lengthy article from MSNBC . you don't need to read the whole article , but i suggest you look at the three items i have highlighted in blue .
imo the last one is the most telling one :
Today, widespread securitization of debt ?- originally intended to reduce risk of any given loan by pooling them with others, chopping them up as securities, and spreading them among hundreds or even thousand of different investors ?- means that it's extremely difficult to know just how risky those individual securities are.

"It's very problematic to get a line of sight to who is the actual borrower," said Bethune.

for the sake of the united states and the whole world i hope this problem can be resolved - the sooner the better .
hbg




Quote:
Investors spooked by credit risks

Fears of lending risk have spread from subprime to wider debt markets

ANALYSIS
By John W. Schoen
Senior Producer
MSNBC
updated 5:45 p.m. ET, Fri., March. 7, 2008

It's not just subprime loans. These days, just about anyone holding a piece of the roughly $27 trillion in credit securities ?- everything from municipal bonds to funding for student loans ?- is asking: Just how much are these things worth?

The question is more than academic. Though most Americans pay much closer attention to the stocks in their retirement accounts, the credit markets provide the critical raw material ?- capital ?- for companies issuing those stocks. And lately, the supply of credit has been in disarray.

"Because of the depth and the length and the severity of housing recession, a lot of the intermediaries in this whole credit system ?- which include banks and bond insurers ?- have had severely deleted capital," said Brian Bethune, U.S. economist at Global Insight, an economic forecasting company.

The biggest single cause of that depletion of capital is the ongoing drop in the value of American homes. Mortgages on those homes represent roughly $6.4 trillion, or about a quarter of the total debt sold by banks, corporations, government and other credit market players, according to Bethune.

And as home prices continue to fall, the capital base of the mortgage debt held by investors will continue to erode. On Thursday, the Federal Reserve reported that ?- for the first time since 1945 ?- the total amount of equity Americans own in their homes fell below the total amount they owed on those homes.

When the credit markets run low on capital, the Federal Reserve steps in to provide more ?- usually in one of two ways. Aggressive cuts on short-term interest rates ?- which some Fed watchers say came later than they should have ?- have cut the cost of money to try to make credit more available and help battered lenders repair the damage to their balance sheets.

The Fed has also offered to buy back $100 billion of debt securities banks may want to unload. On Friday, the Fed announced that it was expanding the list of debt securities it would buy.

But despite those moves, some debt securities ?- even relatively safe ones ?- are still going begging. Last month, for example, investors shunned debt auctions from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and from a Michigan student loan program.

There's no reason to believe the Port Authority will have any problems collecting tolls, nor are Michigan students likely to default on loans any more than they have in the past. What's different is that some investors are so nervous about debt in all forms that they're hoarding cash and waiting for signs that the storm has passed.


Worries about municipal bond insurers, for example, have lead to fears that even the highest-rated bonds could become a risky bet if those bond insurers don't have the cash to pay investors in the event a bond issuer defaults.

On Friday, bond insurer Ambac Financial said it had raised another $1.5 billion, mostly by selling stock, in order to keep its own credit rating intact. Ambac CEO Michael Callen told CNBC that he thinks the worst-case scenarios are overblown.

"But there is today … a focus on these extreme situations," he said. "And the world generally doesn't get there."


Since they first hit rough weather last August, the credit markets have seen a series of storms blow through ?- spurred by fears that the housing recession was worsening, that bank losses were bigger than feared and that the economic outlook was worsening. After each shock passed, conditions seemed to improve ?- only to take a turn for the worse months later.

One reason the credit markets have had trouble finding a footing is that unlike stock prices, which can react quickly to news of lower profits or sales slowdowns, the value of credit securities ?- especially those with maturities of decades ?- depend on a series of unknowns that stretch far into the future. Until there are strong signs that the worst of the housing and economic downturn have passed, uncertainty will continue to weigh on credit market investors.

Uncertainly in the credit markets is also heightened by the growth of a new breed of unregulated investment pools known as hedge funds. Unlike banks, which are required to report the value of assets on their books every three months, there are no such reporting requirements for hedge funds. So-called "special investment vehicles" ?- created by banks to bundle mortgage loans and sell them off to investors ?- are also not reported on bank balance sheets. The worry is that losses on mortgage-backed debt carried off the books may be larger than has already been reported.

Hedge funds have also borrowed heavily from banks to buy debt securities on credit, increasing those funds' returns when times are good ?- but substantially increasing their risk when times get tough. On Thursday, Carlyle Capital Corp. became the latest fund to announce that faced a credit squeeze, after banks called in loans on some of its $22 billion in bonds, forcing it to dump holdings to raise cash. The worry is that more funds may get caught in a similar squeeze.

It's also far from clear just how much money will be lost before the unwinding of the credit markets runs its course. So far, banks and other lenders have reported hundreds of billions of dollars in losses. But analysts and investors can only guess at how high those losses will eventually reach.

According to one estimate, the financial industry needs $1 trillion in permanent capital to help stabilize mortgage-backed bonds, but is unlikely to raise that much. Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co. analyst Paul J. Miller Jr. wrote in a research note Friday that it will take between six and 12 months for the credit markets to stabilize.

The risk of a deeper economic recession is also weighing on the credit markets. Just as homeowners who lose their jobs in a recession stand a greater chance of defaulting on their mortgage, companies and local governments become stretched too. Until investors in the credit markets see some sign of an economic turnaround, that fear that a company or local government may default will continue to loom large.

So far, signs of recovery are few and far between. Housing prices continue to fall, and mortgage delinquencies continue to rise. The latest jobs data reported Friday, showing a net loss in jobs last month, seem to confirm a wider economic downturn that some economists believe started in December.

Recent signs that inflation is picking up steam has also sent a chill through the credit markets. The reason there is simple: inflation destroys the value of all forms of debt. That's because borrowers pay back the lender with dollars that have less purchasing power than they did when they borrowed the money. If inflation rises to levels higher than the interest rate set at the original debt auction, investors lose money.


Perhaps the greatest uncertainty gripping the credit markets is the question of just who is on the other end of a loan transaction. When debt securities represented borrowing from a single entity ?- whether a corporation, a local government or an individual homeowner ?- it was fairly easy to know when that borrower got in financial trouble.

Today, widespread securitization of debt ?- originally intended to reduce risk of any given loan by pooling them with others, chopping them up as securities, and spreading them among hundreds or even thousand of different investors ?- means that it's extremely difficult to know just how risky those individual securities are.

"It's very problematic to get a line of sight to who is the actual borrower," said Bethune.

© 2008 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23522701/



source :
MSNBC
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:45 pm
The consolidation of various kinds of debt into securities that were sold and resold is the biggest problem that scares investors today; not knowing the final impact/loss of their investments.

I also agree that it'll take this and and probably most of 2009 before the financial institutions can measure with any accuracy how bad this credit crunch/problem is.

People will begin to feel more secure after we gain knowledge about the depth of this problem, and how long it'll take to "recover."

From now through next year, investors will be jittery; after such huge losses and very little gain during the past couple of years (after most financial pundits forecasted much higher gains), it's normal to be a bit gun-shy. The wealthy still have money to invest, and the companies with good management will buy back their own stock to increase earnings. Good strategy is the key to long-term financial stability whether for the individual investor or companies struggling to survive this turmoil.

Just be patient; watch the financial news by reading and watching the major, credible, writers who have shown their mettle for the long-term.

Try to keep your emotion in check, and use your brain.
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