the constraints of society

Please explain how this is or is not justice? Someone who lives in a third-world country most often has a choice - even if it is a difficult choice.

The history of society is full of inequities and tough choices.

A question here could be how can the better off 'Haves' of society can help mimimize these inequities and help the 'Have-nots'.

Re: the constraints of society


Do you have any solutions out of this dilemma?

I'm curious as to what sort of passions society stops one from pursuing.

I'm also curious as to what freedom means to you.

One idea that I had was about what could be done with prisoners. How could prisoners be put to use? I think that prisoners, or at least some prisoners should be made to do unskilled jobs, the jobs that noone else wants to do, they dont get paid for it though, they would just do it in the daytime, instead of just sitting in prison doing nothing, they could contribute to society, as a punishment. And even if they don't see it as punishment, at least they would be doing something constructive, instead of having the easy life, as so many prisoners see it. Jobs like factory work, dustbinmen, and so on. And as they work for these companies, the money that innocent workers would otherwise get, goes towards something worthwhile, like charities or the like.

I don't know who ridiculous this idea is.

There have been programs such as that--the classic image is the "chain gang" working on roads in the United States. Your use of the term "dustbinmen" suggests to me that you are not in the United States. In the United States, there has been a long history of the issue of the "usefulness" of prisoners. In some cases, prisoners have been given sledge hammers and set to breaking up rock cleared from road beds, to turn it into usable gravel for road grading. This is a classic image of someone being sentenced to hard labor. In other examples, prison farms have been set up with the idea that prisoners will be used to provide the labor that produces the food which they eat. Usually, such programs have run down and have been abandoned, because large food service corporations can supply much more cheaply than the total cost of employing prisoners to grow their own food. The nature of the labor which prisoners can be forced to do has also been circumscribed in the United States by court decisions in law suits in which prisoners have alleged that the labor required of them constituted "cruel and unusual punishment," which is prohibited by the American constitution. The classic modern image of prison labor was the manufacture of license plates for automobiles, which until about 30 or 40 years ago, were changed every year. Now, one simply attaches a new registration sticker, and, once again, prison labor is not found to be cost effective.

It is not only in the United States, however, that such schemes have been attempted. There have been "work houses" for centuries in Europe, and prisoners were often put on a treadmill to provide power for small scale manufacturing schemes, which, as has been the case in the United States, often proved to lose money rather than to make money. In England, the treadmill was commonly used, as was the Union Workhouse . . .

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

The lines above are a part of a classic passage from Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol.

This is not to say that convict labor has never been profitable--at least, profitable to someone. Before the American Revolution, and at a time when there were more than 150 "hanging" offenses in England, convicts would have their sentences commuted to transportation, and they would be sent out to the American colonies of Maryland and Virginia, and sometimes to the Carolinas (although the people there resisted). The colony of Georgia was originally proposed as a convict colony, but the land proved too valuable, and the rush of free colonists quickly exceeded the number of convicts.

After the American Revolution, England still had convicts, many often housed in prison hulks (the hulls of warships which were no longer sea worthy, and which were moored in rivers and used as prisons), but with no where to transport them. So, in 1787, the First Fleet as is it is now known, set sail for the antipodes. In January, 1788, the fleet anchored in Sidney Cove, and the great penal colony in Australia was inaugurated. Transportation was ended in New South Wales by the 1830s, although it continued in Van Diemans Land and on Norfolk Island until the 1860s. Settlers, both those who were free immigrants and those who were "ticket of leave men" (meaning convicts who had completed their sentence, but weren't allowed to or were disinclined to return to England or Ireland), greatly valued convict labor, because they didn't have to pay for it, they simply had to meet minimum requirements to feed, house and cloth the convicts. The Australian continent was a great prison setting, just as early America had been, because there was nowhere to escape to. However, all of that cheap labor was not actually cost effective, because it cost the government so much to administer the colonies, to supply remote places such as Norfolk Island or Macquarie Harbor, and to maintain a military force to police the colonies. The settlers loved it, of course, because they weren't paying the cost of the system.

Eventually, transportation to Australia was ended because attitudes toward crime and punishment changed, it wasn't cost effective for the government, the majority of the population of Australia were free and didn't want more convicts, and simply human decency recoiled from the accounts of the atrocities committed in remote laces such as Norfolk Island or Macquarie Harbor.

I can't say for a fact, but from what i read, i suspect that no one has ever found a fool-proof, cost-effective way of employing convict labor.

simple, by helping.

for example, im supposed to have a "job" and get "money" to pay "rent"

this all interferes with my passion, which requires hours and reflection and contemplation while changing miniscule portions of art i have been working on for weeks and weeks.

i just quit my job due to my inability to focus on my art. if i didnt have unemployment and food stamps i would be out stealing and robbing, which is against my beliefs, but suicide by starvation is also against my beliefs. a job isnt my belief, if you dont like it it sucks for you keep supporting a society i can take advantage of.(well that and i cant sit for hours in a room in complete silence WATCHING AN EMPTY CASINO) i just cant do it. but that doesnt affect my need to eat and drink and pay rent. omg i spent a ******* year inside that ******* box jesus christ. oh my god....
lol i just went through the entire year in my head and all i think of is sittin in front of those unmoving monitors. hahaha oh god im so happy now that i quit..(tangent)

society has nothing to offer me except a lifetime of wage slavery. you can call me lazy but im not, i actually work hard. unfortunately skills and work do not equate to more money, and i dislike that. i work hard, i want o EARN hard. but this pathetic excuse for a free market monetary based society is, well i dont feel the need to be a part of something that doesnt have my interests in mind. if society wants me to participate, its going to be symbiotic, not me sacrificing "all" for a house thats falling apart and barely enough money to eat.quite simply, **** that ****.

lets just say i dont believe because i was born at a certain latitude and longitude i owe anything to anyone. governments dont even exist, they are just people spreading the idea of it through use of force. goverments are just religions on the next level, once everyone realised that god is way to control people through fear, they needed to step up the game of controlling the real estate of the planet earth. because that is all that really matters isnt it?

"it is generally and widely assumed that the world is broken down into state controlled territories which regulate trade and laws"

that is the closest and most honest sentence ive read explaining the theory of the state so far, it sad really. there is no basis whatsoever for the existence of governments, except protection from other governments.

sorta "circular" isn't it?

The funny part is, if i had the resources of someone more well off, i would have a vested interest in supporting a government which enforces laws and ensures that my money is able to be used as tender for transactions which net me resources and tools. reward cements my loyalty more than punishment. punishing people for things they were ignorant of or have no control over leads to rebellious behavior.

freedom for me is not having anyone able to restrict my actions or affect my ability to breath,drink and eat.

this is all based on the assumption that "time" is all we have, work taking up over 75% of the week equating to me giving society everything i had basically.

Re: the constraints of society


uhh simple, dont participate.

Re: the constraints of society


I've got a solution out of here. It's gets 30 miles to the gallon and puts 205 horsepower across 8-inch back tires. My backup plan is a pair of 8-inch hard-toe boots that I know what to do with.

The question is not 'what is the alternative to society?" it is "has society overreached it's boundaries?" Damn right it has. It's become aberrant and self-serving.

As for how it is or is not justice - justice is a construct of society. You might as well evaluate the numeral seven in terms of the numeral two.

What passions I'm stopped from pursuing? I like to whiz whenever the need arises within me and wherever I happen to be at that time. But that's just me, what if I were a medical scientist and wanted to develop something people would like to use? Instead of the resources to develop it coming from the fact that it is useful to people who have resources, they might have to come from the fact that the G thinks its useful. And say what you will, the G thinks what it is convenient for the G to think.

Re: the constraints of society


Not bad... not bad at all. My own solution tends to involve crystal meth, but I should try yours some time.