13
   

OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 05:44 am
@msolga,
Ill keep a weather eye off starboard and get back t'ye with any tales of the conference that I ram into.

I just hadnt had anything newsworthy in the last month or soi. I think weve sort of laid our our various positions on this topic and From the ANIMAL PLANETS new show "Whale Wars", Ive had a chance to see some of the encounters between Watsons crew and the Japanese whaling fleet. Those people on tne IRWIN have cojones of solid steel.

The recent episodes have played to how the Japanese were countering Watson by sailing up close to the Irwins heli deck and trying to disable their helicopter by using a high pressure hose.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 05:55 am
@farmerman,
Speaking of SeaShepherd, farmer ...
Just checked out their latest newsletter.
A couple of extracts that people might find interesting ... :


Quote:
The German congress had passed a decree on April 22nd, 2010 to declare full support for formal negotiations with Iceland with the aim of bringing Iceland in as a full member of the European Union. But the decree carried the stipulation that Iceland must make amends with regards to whale preservation in accordance with international and EU law. ...<cont>


PLUS:

Quote:
The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is rejecting the International Whaling Commission (IWC) as a corrupt and irrelevant body that has lost all credibility as an organization responsible for the conservation of the world’s whales.

Sea Shepherd will be sending ships back to the Southern Ocean in December to once again intercept and intervene against illegal Japanese whaling activities. ...<cont>


http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/sea-shepherd-news.html
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 05:40 am
The International Whaling Commission conference is now underway in Morocco.
This lengthy article from the BBC gives a good overview of the different positions of the countries involved, also conservation groups, to the proposal to resume "limited" commercial whaling.

There are also many excellent links to related articles in the BBC link below.:


Quote:
Whaling deal splits countries and conservationists
Page last updated at 21:22 GMT, Sunday, 20 June 2010 22:22 UK
By Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News, Agadir


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48124000/jpg/_48124234_whale466afp.jpg

A deal that could regulate whaling for the next 10 years is up for debate at the International Whaling Commission's meeting opening in Agadir, Morocco.

The proposal would see Iceland, Japan and Norway given annual quotas with hunts more tightly scrutinised, while international trade could be banned.

Some anti-whaling countries and some conservation groups support the idea, while others are implacably opposed.

Few observers are prepared to predict whether the deal will be approved.


The week-long annual meeting in Agadir marks the final stage in a two-year US-led process that has seen bitter foes such as Australia and Japan working together in attempts to find areas of compromise.

Two months ago, the IWC chairman released a draft proposal that was based on discussions held over the two years.

Following preparatory talks here on that draft, there were indications that the sides remained far apart.

Australia's commissioner to the IWC, Donna Petrachenko, argued that as things stand, the deal would undermine the commercial whaling moratorium that has been in place since 1986.

"The moratorium must remain in place," she said.


"And what we see in this proposal would be sanctioning of commercial whaling in the Southern Ocean, in a whale sanctuary; and commercial whaling in the North Pacific and commercial whaling in the North Atlantic."


Polarised

On the other side of the divide, whaling countries accused the anti-whaling bloc of not accepting the legitimacy of their concerns.

"There are basically two groups of countries, one in favour of sustainable whaling and the other opposed to whaling, except for Aboriginal subsistence purposes," said Tomas Heidar, Iceland's IWC commissioner.

"To our mind, the logical compromise is limited whaling - but now, as we come to Agadir, we see that not many of the anti-whaling countries are prepared to contemplate anything other than Aboriginal subsistence whaling, so consequently I've no reason to be optimistic that there will be a compromise," he told BBC News.

"But we will continue to work constructively."

Iceland and Australia mark the extreme ends of the spectrum of opinion on the issue; and other anti-whaling countries, such as the US, New Zealand and the majority of EU member states, appear willing to sanction a deal provided it meets their "bottom-line" positions.


Broadly speaking, this means a significant phase-down (ideally a complete phase-out) of Japan's Antarctic hunt, agreement that whale meat is for domestic use only, the end of hunting on threatened species, and the imposition of control measures such as a DNA register of meat.

Whether Japan is prepared to accept a near phase-out of its Antarctic programme is possibly the biggest single factor.

Currently, the draft proposal offers an annual quota of 400 minke whales, going down to 200 after five years.

Conservation groups say these numbers are too high; but Japan says they are too low.

However, some long-time observers believe Tokyo does want to strike a deal and will be offering further concessions as the week unfolds.


Green divisions

The issue has split the environmental groups engaged on the whaling issue.
Minke whale sushi The draft offers an annual quota of 400 minke, meat popular in Sushi dishes


For some, such as WWF and Greenpeace, a deal - though far from their perfect solution, which is an end to all whaling - would be a marked improvement on the current situation, wherein Japan, Iceland and Norway set their quotas unilaterally.

"The global whaling moratorium is without doubt one of the most impressive conservation achievements of our time; yet it's not working for everyone," said Wendy Elliott, manager of the species programme with WWF International.

"We have three governments that are whaling commercially, either under the guise of science or under objection to that ban - the quotas are too high in some cases, and there's no international oversight.

"What we're trying to do is to bring that whaling under international control."

However, others back the Australian view that the moratorium must remain intact - not least because some other countries with a whaling past may be looking for a route to renewed hunting.

"It would legitimise commercial whaling, and it would legitimise it for 10 years, rewarding bad behaviour by countries that did not abide by the moratorium," said Andy Ottaway, director of the UK-based group Campaign Whale.

"This deal wouldn't just open the door to commercial whaling, it would kick it wide open, because South Korea has said it wants a slice of the action, and there are whaling sleeping giants out there waiting to re-start."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10362015.stm
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 05:47 am
@msolga,
Video: ABC news (Australia) report on the IWC conference:

Quote:
Critical whaling talks underway
Source: 7pm TV News NSW
Published: Monday, June 21, 2010 8:36 AEST
Expires: Sunday, September 19, 2010 8:36 AEST
Delegates from up to 90 countries are at the annual International Whaling Commission meeting in Morocco to consider overturning a 24-year ban on commercial whaling.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/06/21/2933050.htm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 02:41 pm
After years of behind-closed-doors meetings, now the conference proceedings are off limits ....
What's the problem with transparency?
It hasn't been a problem till now.

(Can't post more now. More later in the day ..):


Quote:

Secrecy of talks on whaling compromise condemned

The annual meeting of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) has opened with attention focussing on a deal that could regulate whaling for 10 years.

The opening session was swiftly adjourned so that delegates could begin a day and a half of private talks. ...<cont.)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10362015.stm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 03:15 am
What a strange state of affairs. Who knows exactly what is going on behind closed doors at the IWC conference?

Not much information is getting out, apart from constant suggestions that the pro & anti sides of the IWC resolution appear to be firmly locked in their respective positions.

Though this is very interesting. Published this afternoon by ABC News (Australia). This may have quite an impact on the the outcome of the debate:


Quote:

17 nations barred from whaling vote
By environment reporter Sarah Clarke/ABC News online
Updated 2 hours 19 minutes ago


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200912/r484912_2488484.jpg
Under the draft proposal, Japan would be allowed to catch 120 whales a year in its coastal waters. (Australian Customs Service, file photo)

Seventeen mostly pro-whaling nations have had their voting rights suspended at the International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting in Morocco, in what could be a blow to Japan's hopes of resuming commercial whaling.

Delegates at the Agadir meeting are currently engaged in secret talks in a bid to break the deadlock over proposals to allow Japan to resume a limited commercial whale hunt in exchange for a reduction in its so-called scientific whaling program in the Southern Ocean.

This morning meeting deputy chairman Anthony Liverpool said about one-fifth of the meeting's 88 member states would not be allowed to vote.

The countries include Palau, the Marshall Islands, Ghana and Gambia and are mostly drawn from the pro-whaling bloc which had been expected to back Japan's move.


They have been suspended for reasons including failing to pay their annual fees.

Solomon Islands, meanwhile, failed to show up at the meeting.

With so many nations unable to vote, some are hopeful that the controversial plan to overturn a 24-year ban on commercial whaling will not get the numbers to pass.

Under the draft proposal, Japan would be allowed to catch 120 whales a year in its coastal waters.

The package has split the anti-whaling bloc, with Australia now at odds with some of its former allies.

The proposal needs a three-quarters majority vote to pass.

Europe could have the deciding vote, with some in the EU supporting a deal.

NZ reaction


Unlike Australia, New Zealand foreign minister Murray McCully says he is prepared to negotiate a deal on limited commercial whaling, provided that the whales in the Southern Ocean are spared.


"The bottom line is that we want to give Japan some space to cease the whaling practices that we've seen over recent summers and find a way to move out of the Southern Ocean," he said.

"We've tried to give them some space to work their way through this and to come to a dignified conclusion.

"Australia's made it clear that it wants to go to the International Court of Justice and has filed. We've said from the beginning we're open to that course if this process doesn't deliver for us here."

Mr McCully says relations with Australia have remained tight throughout the conference.

"I've kept in touch with Stephen Smith, my counterpart throughout, and I've got to say that that's a very close and harmonious relationship," he said.

But he says he is not optimistic there will be a positive agreement as members have vastly different opinions.

"The fact that the chair has had to suspend the plenary session and send people away to have negotiations in groups tells you that we have serious and potentially intractable differences between the parties," he said.

"The odds have always been much more strongly on a breakdown rather than a breakthrough here." ...<cont>

......................


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/22/2933768.htm


Perhaps some of those nations are those which Japan has been accused of bribing?:


Japan accused of using aid to get support for whaling:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10358046.stm

Video: A comprehensive update on the situation from the ABC's Lateline program last night:

Quote:
IWC accused of shutting down debate[/b]
Source: ABC News
Published: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:30 AEST
Expires: Monday, September 20, 2010 10:30 AEST

Member countries are struggling to find common ground at the annual International Whaling Commission meeting.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/06/22/2933497.htm


0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 03:27 am
Quote:
Under the draft proposal, Japan would be allowed to catch 120 whales a year in its coastal waters.


I would support such a proposal.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 04:31 am
@dadpad,
And some conservation groups would agree with you, dadpad.
As you've no doubt noticed, a number of the more pragmatic groups believe that this is preferable to the situation that currently exists: a ban on whaling that IWC cannot oblige its members to honour.

Me, I am extremely sceptical about the notion of a "phasing out" period of whaling & would prefer the ban to remain, as faulty as it is.
I have grave doubts that the IWC has the capability (or the will, even) to closely monitor the whaling activities of Japan Norway & Iceland, to ensure that their catches remain within the allowable "limited" quotas. I see the IWC resolution (if passed) as making commercial whaling "respectable" again, including in established whale sanctuaries. Not a phasing out stage. Already South Korea has indicated that it would like to resume whaling if Japan gains approval.
Maybe other countries might think it's a good idea, too?
Japan has already indicated that it sees its allowable quota as being too small. As it did not comply with the IWC moratorium on whaling, why should we assume it will comply with "limited" quotas & play by the rules?





0 Replies
 
scott1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:19 am
I was on the fence about the ban being lifted or not but after doing some research I am 100% for a ban on whale hunting. These animals have a conscience and could even be smarter than human beings, we are just unable to communicate with them. If anyone else is interested you should definitely check out this website that has a pretty large thread of whale/whale hunting videos. All very informational. The exact video below talks about the conscience and intellect of whales/dolphins as well other points surrounding the IWC's meeting.
http://www.frequency.com/video/making-case-for/124892
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 11:05 am
Wanting a ban and getting the voluntary cooperation of nations that don't want one are different things. There is no systemn of international law or enforcement that can force nations that don't wish to end the harvesting of whales to comply with such a ban. Ultimately the issue will depend on persuasion. While many are outraged at the limitations of persuasion, the fact is that enormous reductions in the rate at which whales are killed and harvested have indeed occurred.

Perfection in human affairs is rarely attainable and the effort to achieve it usually involves a good deal of selective focus. There are many problems out there competing for attention and rersources. To some degree their respective solutions do indeed compete with one another. That some here believe whale hunting tops the list, does not require others, with different situations and different viewpoints, to agree.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 01:50 pm
@georgeob1,
The same thing is occuring with the decimation of our black and grizzly bears for the oriental"male enhancement" market. Its a business that is morally bankrupt.
Watson may be a pirate but we will remember him like TJ Jeffords some day
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 02:03 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The same thing is occuring with the decimation of our black and grizzly bears for the oriental"male enhancement" market. Its a business that is morally bankrupt.


My god but you're a hypocrite, FM. Always wanting to blame these things on others. The decimation of "our" black and grizzly bears is and was due to those who lived and live in the USA.

You see "male enhancement" hanging on the walls of homes all over the US.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 02:39 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Wanting a ban and getting the voluntary cooperation of nations that don't want one are different things. There is no systemn of international law or enforcement that can force nations that don't wish to end the harvesting of whales to comply with such a ban. Ultimately the issue will depend on persuasion.


Indeed, gaining voluntary cooperation is a very difficult thing to achieve, George. It not easy in the UN & it certainly hasn't been easy at the International Whaling Commission.

But let's take a look at the process of "persuasion" in the IWC. Since the IWC ban on whaling (established by a majority vote) 3 nations have refused to comply, & have continued to whale commercially - Japan, Norway & Iceland. They weren't persuaded that their own (whaling) interests were served by the IWC moratorium on whaling.

Since the last IWC conference, there have been ongoing behind the scenes negotiations, led by the IWC chairman, which have resulted in the "limited whaling" proposal (based on "strict quotas" for the 3 whaling nations) now before the Morocco conference. The motive for this proposal, as I understand it, is to bring the 3 whaling nations back into the "IWC fold". (And for the IWC to regain some semblance of relevance on this issue, too, I'd say.) Because they did not ever accept the whaling ban, the anti-whaling nations are now expected to compromise a hard-won decision to accommodate them. In other words (as many conservationists see things) they are being rewarded for their non-compliance to a majority decision of the IWC.

Now let's take a look a Japan's whaling activities & attitudes since the IWC's ban on whaling. (I choose Japan because that is the whaling nation that I am most familiar with, as an Australian. I am very familiar with the annual cull in the Southern Ocean, particularly in the whale sanctuary -also established by the IWC.) Japan's whaling activities were the impetus & also the main focus these two whaling threads.)

Japan has continued to whale commercially during the moratorium, using the "scientific whaling" loophole, which everyone knows to be farcical. (Where are all the research findings which justify the killing of so many whales?) Yet it has remained an IWC member, attempting at conference after conference to have the whaling ban overturned, by whatever means .... including offering bribes to member countries (with little or no interest in whales or whaling, even) with aid & other incentives, paying the fees of such new member countries so that they become members with voting rights ... (Check out a number of my recent & past posts here from reliable media sources if you think I'm making up stories.)

But none of this has worked for Japan & now we have the IWC, with the backing of the US (which had previously strongly supported the ban, even considering sanctions against Japan at one stage) supporting this "compromise" resolution.

So why has Japan been so eager, gone to so much trouble, to change the IWC position on whaling? It could have, like Iceland & Norway, simply have ignored the whaling ban & continued (whaling) business as usual. I believe it is because Japan wants commercial whaling formally legitimized again. Do I think Japan will restrict is quotas to those "limited" by the IWC. No, I don't. (And as I said earlier, I believe the IWC has neither the capability nor the will to properly monitor such activities. It certainly wasn't able to persuade the whaling nations to comply with its own ban on whaling.) No, I believe that what Japan is seeking is a moral justification for commercial whaling. Do I believe that Japan will be persuaded to see this "limited whaling" period as a phasing out stage to whaling? No, I honestly don't believe that, either. I believe Japan will continue to do what it has always done - what best suits its own interests.

So now, with the US on side, following 3 years of backroom negotiations to support the "compromise resolution", 2 days of secret talks from which the media has been banned, it's looking like we still have a stalemate between the pro-whalers & the anti whalers at the Morocco conference. I read an article earlier on today, suggesting that 3 more years might be necessary to persuade the anti-whaling nations of the desirability of the IWC's position.













msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 02:47 am
@msolga,
Update from the BBC.:

Quote:

Hopes fade of compromise over whaling

02:08 GMT, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 03:08 UK
By Richard Black


Prospects of a compromise deal between whaling countries and their opponents appear to be receding.

Two days of private talks at the International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting here yielded little progress.

Delegates told BBC News there were even suggestions that the "peace talks" should be extended into a third year. ..<cont>


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10386224.stm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 06:29 am
Quote:
Whaling moratorium talks break down
Updated 1 hour 53 minutes ago/ABC NEWS

Talks on replacing a moratorium on whaling with a controlled cull have hit an impasse and will be suspended for a year, delegates at a meeting of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) say.

Negotiators in the Moroccan city of Agadir said the proposal, aimed at breaking the long-running deadlock over the emotive issue of whaling, failed because whaling countries and anti-whaling delegations could not find enough common ground.

"This means these talks are finished," said Sue Lieberman, who was heading the delegation of the anti-whaling Pew Environment Group at the talks.

One national delegate said talks on the proposed changes to whaling policy had been put on hold until the next annual session of the IWC.

"It seems this means that there is going to be a one-year break in negotiations," said Uruguayan representative Gaston Lasarte. ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/23/2935275.htm
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 06:44 am
@msolga,


Quote:

Whaling 'peace deal' falls apart

Page last updated at 10:42 GMT, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 11:42 UK
By Richard Black

Environment correspondent, BBC News, Agadir

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48124000/jpg/_48124234_whale466afp.jpg
Countries attempting to reach a compromise on whaling have reached an "impasse"

Attempts to agree a compromise between whaling nations and their opponents at the International Whaling Commission's (IWC) annual meeting have failed.

After two days of private discussions, delegates reported they had been unable to reach agreement on major issues.

The deal would have put whaling by Iceland, Japan and Norway under international oversight for 10 years.


Talks on the "peace process" have been going on for two years, and a further year's "cooling-off period" is likely.

"After two years of talks... it appears our process is at an impasse," said the US commissioner Monica Medina.

The US has been one of the nations pushing the compromise process forward, and Ms Medina said the breakdown was the fault of no particular party.

However, other delegates - albeit in moderate terms - sought to pin the blame for the breakdown on their opponents.

Argentina's representative Susana Ruiz Cerutti said the draft proposal which has been in front of governments for two months did not meet the needs of Latin American countries.

"It legitimises scientific whaling in the Southern Ocean (by Japan), and does not substantially reduce catches," she said.


The gulf between this vision and that of the whaling nations was exemplified by Japan's junior agriculture and fisheries minister Yasue Funayama, who described the aim of the talks as "restoring the IWC's function as a resource management organisation".

Anti-whaling nations overwhelmingly want the body to transform into a whale conservation organisation.

The proposal, she said, "contained elements that are extremely difficult for Japan to accept".

Behind the scenes, Japanese sources said the key stumbling block for them was the demand from the EU and the Buenos Aires group of Latin American countries that its Antarctic whaling programme must end within a set time-frame.

For Japan, agreeing to reduce its quota from 935 now to 200 in 10 years time represented a significant step forward, which they thought ought to have been acceptable to their opponents, with further discussions - possibly on a phase-out - taking place subsequently.

Sir Geoffrey Palmer, New Zealand's former prime minister and current whaling commissioner, who has been intimately involved in the "peace talks", said that "Japan did show real flexibility and a real willingness to compromise".

"But we are in the situation now where the gaps cannot at this time be bridged; and the reason for this I think is obvious enough - there is an absence of a political will to bridge those gaps, an absence of political will to compromise."

The path forwards now is unclear. Many delegates are asking whether there is any point in leaving the issue open for a further year; if agreement is impossible, they suggest it would be better to face up to the fact now.

Opting for more time would "raise the question of the commission's credibility," said Remi Parmentier, senior policy adviser to the Pew Environment Group, which has been one of the organisations backing the exploration of compromise.

But there may also be a reluctance to leave the more constructive tone of the previous two years behind, and risk a return to the acrimony that formerly characterised the IWC.

However, other anti-whaling groups were pleased that their governments did not accept the draft agreement, as in their view it would have legitimised the whaling programmes of Iceland, Japan and Norway.

"Had this deal lived, it would have lived in infamy," said Patrick Ramage, head of the International Fund for Animal Welfare's (IFAW) whales programme.

"There may be a cooling-off period in the IWC, but meanwhile the whalers will be in hot pursuit of their prey."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10389638.stm
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 06:47 am
Let the Argentinas and anti whaling nations put their navies to the task of protecting whales
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 07:17 am
@farmerman,
The breakdown of the talks appears to be the result of irreconcilable differences between the pro & anti whaling factions of the IWC & also the environment movement. This "compromise resolution" seemed aimed more at taking the heat off the IWC as an organization than anything much else to me. An attempt at restoring some authority & credibility to the organization. I can't say I came across any convincing pro-whaling arguments in any of the media reporting from the IRC. That seemed a side issue, almost. Also the decision to allow whaling to continue in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary as part of the deal, was never going to convince many countries & also many conservationists. In fact it made a number dig their heels in.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:36 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
Wanting a ban and getting the voluntary cooperation of nations that don't want one are different things. There is no systemn of international law or enforcement that can force nations that don't wish to end the harvesting of whales to comply with such a ban. Ultimately the issue will depend on persuasion.


Indeed, gaining voluntary cooperation is a very difficult thing to achieve, George. It not easy in the UN & it certainly hasn't been easy at the International Whaling Commission.

But let's take a look at the process of "persuasion" in the IWC. Since the IWC ban on whaling (established by a majority vote) 3 nations have refused to comply, & have continued to whale commercially - Japan, Norway & Iceland. They weren't persuaded that their own (whaling) interests were served by the IWC moratorium on whaling.
...

So why has Japan been so eager, gone to so much trouble, to change the IWC position on whaling? It could have, like Iceland & Norway, simply have ignored the whaling ban & continued (whaling) business as usual. I believe it is because Japan wants commercial whaling formally legitimized again.


Persuasion is indeed both difficult and uncertain in its outcome, as you indicate. So is force. It may be that the reason the Japanese, unlike the Norwegians & Icelanders, are working actively to undue the ban on whaling is an angry reaction to the unlawful and dangerous activities of protesters at sea, who appear to be tolerated and indeed supported by the pro whaling ban countries in the IWC. Certainly that kind of activity is not well-designed to persuade the Japanese to adopt a different point of view.

You can't have it (and usually won't get it) both ways.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 01:09 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Persuasion is indeed both difficult and uncertain in its outcome, as you indicate. So is force. It may be that the reason the Japanese, unlike the Norwegians & Icelanders, are working actively to undue the ban on whaling is an angry reaction to the unlawful and dangerous activities of protesters at sea, who appear to be tolerated and indeed supported by the pro whaling ban countries in the IWC.


I think the "angry reaction" might have something to do with the fact that it was the Japanese who have carried out commercial whaling in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary during a moratorium on whaling, George, while the Norwegians & Icelanders didn't.

That was a very selective quote from my long post.

But, speaking of persuasion, I don't think many anti-whaling people have been exactly impressed by the tactics the Japanese have used in the IWC, in the hope of achieving an end to the whaling moratorium. (Refer to the big chunk of my post you left out in your quote for details. Wink )

In fact, I think they did next to nothing to over the win hearts & minds of the soundness of their case for the resumption of "limited" commercial whaling. Relying instead on IWC management & a powerful new ally (the USA) to do the heavy lifting for them. What exactly ARE the benefits of a return to commercial whaling? I didn't see much effort on the part of the Japanese to spell them out to people who were opposed to the idea.
 

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