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OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:18 pm
@JTT,
I know as much as you know at this stage (via the media reports I've posted.)

I'd respond your post in more detail, but I fear we might get bogged down in that IWC resolution yet again, after just having gotten ourselves out. And I'm just not up to it this morning. Wink
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:32 pm
@JTT,
Well well well, ... some things just never change, do they?

Quote:
Whaling

...

When the commercial whaling moratorium was introduced by the IWC in 1982, Japan lodged an official objection. However, in response to US threats to cut Japan's fishing quota in US territorial waters under the terms of the Packwood-Magnuson Amendment, Japan withdrew its objection in 1987.

However, according to the BBC, America went back on this promise, [sigh] effectively destroying the deal.[14] Since Japan could not resume commercial whaling, it began whaling on a supposedly scientific-research basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#cite_note-13



Quote:
Did Greens help kill the whale?
By Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News website

...

'Irrational' ban

There is no doubt that Japan felt affronted by the moratorium. The most depleted species such as the blue whale were already protected, the IWC was awarding ever-declining annual quotas for the rest, and Japanese negotiators felt a complete halt was an unnecessary political act.
"It was a totally irrational position, to us," recounts Kazuo Shima, one of Japan's Commissioners to the IWC in the 1980s and 90s.

"The US gave strong pressure, which was a very irrational activity of them."

This came on top of Japanese resentment that they were being blamed for bringing some whales close to extinction by nations such as the UK and US which had historically caught far greater numbers.

As I mentioned, just a bunch of hypocritical born- againers. I think that a court case where all the facts can be brought out would be highly instructive and enlightening.

Along with Norway, Peru and the USSR, Japan lodged an objection to the whaling moratorium, which any IWC member was entitled to do, exempting themselves from the decision. It is on that basis that Norwegian whaling continues today.

The diplomatic pressure on Japan was about to increase.

Vein of vitriol

Reports from the period document the strong vein of anti-Japanese sentiment running through some strands of US society at the time.

The nation which US bombers had razed less than 30 years previously, which had entered the war through the attack on Pearl Harbour, was now out-competing the US industrially.

Japanese electronic goods were ceremonially smashed in Congress, and Tokyo voluntarily withheld car exports to avoid US protectionism.

Turning American citizens and American politicians against Japanese whaling, with lobbying, publicity and boycotts, was perhaps rather easy for NGOs.

The US had two pieces of legislation which it could use to put pressure not only on Japan in general, but on its huge fisheries interests directly.

The Packwood-Magnuson Amendment allowed Washington to cut the fishing quotas in US waters of any country which it felt was undermining an international conservation agreement; under the Pelly Amendment, it could impose trade sanctions on any offending nation.

Fishing quotas were hugely important to Japan. Its boats were catching more than a million tonnes of fish per year in US waters, mainly off the Alaskan coast. The New York Times of 1983 priced the catch at $425m annually, well beyond the value of Japan's whaling.

At the end of 1984, a coalition of environmental groups initiated a lawsuit aimed at forcing Ronald Reagan's administration to invoke Packwood-Magnuson and Pelly against Japan.

But in bilateral discussions, the two governments reached an agreement. Japan would cease whaling in 1988, two years beyond the moratorium date, and withdraw its objection; in return, Ronald Reagan's administration agreed not to take action under Packwood-Magnuson or Pelly.

Again, it seemed that an end to Japanese whaling was in sight. However, the court action continued, the NGOs claiming the administration had no right to make a deal with Japan.

Eventually, in June 1986, the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the administration. The deal, apparently, was sealed; in return for keeping its fishing nets full, Japan would hang up its harpoons for good.

The next month, Japan formally withdrew its objection to the whaling moratorium.

Gone west

However, on the US west coast, a completely different issue was raising its head.

In a bid to develop their own industry, US fishermen were pushing for the removal of foreign access to US waters. They were aided by a coalition of 14 NGOs led by Greenpeace who went to court against Japan, claiming its fishing methods harmed porpoises, seals and birds.
The Japanese quota plummeted. From 900,000 tonnes in 1985, it halved in 1986, then fell to 104,000 tonnes the following year. In 1988, the quota was zero; an estimated 130 Japanese fishing boats had nothing to catch.

Shigeko Misaki, who worked with Japanese IWC delegations first as an interpreter and later as an advisor, recalls great anger within the Japanese government and fishing industry at the time.

"(The US) said 'we didn't promise - we just have to give more fish to our fishermen'," she says.

"Anger is the only word that can describe it - why did America have to cheat us like that?"

Within months, Japan had announced it would begin hunting whales for scientific research, a programme that continues to this day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6659401.stm
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:39 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Im always amazed at the talent we display on these boards.


Farmerman, I'm amazed at you. You represent yourself as a scientist. But when something tugs at your heartstrings, what happens to you? You have been front and center casting aspersions at the Japanese, not the only one mind you, all the while covering the machinations of your government and that of other equally despicable partners in deceit.

Why haven't you leaped forward to denounce the turning down of the Japanese villages where whale hunting is cultural and yet we hear nothing from you about the native hunts in the USA?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:44 pm
@JTT,
I won't be responding to this post, JTT. But anyone else is most welcome to, of course.
Tell you why: I have personally spent hours responding to pretty much the same, from previous posts from both you & George. There are pages & pages here. Seriously, I'm all posted out on this particular point. I really have nothing new to add to what I have already said. Even to me, my posts are starting to look rather boring on this one aspect. I guess I could cut & past my old responses, but I dunno what the point of that would be, really ...

Anyway, as I said, anyone else who wants to is most welcome.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:50 pm
@msolga,
Has this duplicity on the part of the anti-whaling countries actually been discussed, MsOlga? If it has, I'd sure like to see some of the responses.

How about just addressing who is still whaling and why Japan gets all the flack?

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:52 pm
Quote:
In a bid to develop their own industry, US fishermen were pushing for the removal of foreign access to US waters. They were aided by a coalition of 14 NGOs led by Greenpeace who went to court against Japan, claiming its fishing methods harmed porpoises, seals and birds.

The Japanese quota plummeted. From 900,000 tonnes in 1985, it halved in 1986, then fell to 104,000 tonnes the following year. In 1988, the quota was zero; an estimated 130 Japanese fishing boats had nothing to catch.


If this were done to the USA, they would start a war.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:58 pm
@msolga,
It seems to me that there has been a great deal of bullying going on and Japan has been the target. The USA comes awfully close to Japan for consumption when seafood for them isn't really that much of a cultural thing; not that there's anything wrong with it, we are where we are as humans consuming the fruits of the earth.

But the hypocrisy, as always, is mindboggling. Both the USA and Australia have [as Robert pointed out] an ample arable land base on which to grow food.

China 1,335,960,000 / 25.4kg per person / 33,934,400,000 kg

Japan 127,470,000 / 66.0kg per person / 8,382,000,000 kg

USA 308,725,000 / 21.3kg per person / 6,560,400,000 kg

And the information, Japan is the biggest consumer of ocean products. Did you look at the figures I posted? I don't think they are dead on accurate but how could the fact that China has over ten times the population of Japan be overlooked?

How could the fact that US consumption is not all that far behind Japan's be overlooked? How could the fact that the USA also imports over 80% of its seafood consumption be overlooked?

There clearly has to be something done on a world wide basis to address these problems but singling out one country, Japan, is not going to fix the problems.

Why is it that Japan is the target? What other countries are whaling?


farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:04 pm
@JTT,
Interesting that Title 16, Conservation:chapeter 38 (Packwood Magneson)contains the statements that define the protection of fish stocks within the territorial waters of the US.
"Going back" on a deal that was never in the initial interests of the US is what I call smart horsetrading. ALso, JUst in case you wanna keep digging, Magneson also contains detailed introduction to the international treaties on the protection of ocean resources of the ANtarctic. It defines infractions, criminal acts and penalties.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:09 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

How about just addressing who is still whaling and why Japan gets all the flack?


Pretty much the main focus here JTT, over two long threads, has been commercial whaling in the Southern Ocean, particularly in the whale sanctuary. But that is because I was the thread instigator & that was my particular focus. Japan is the only nation that can get possible "flack" for that. Because no one else is doing it.

Yes, of course we could also discuss which other nations are still whaling in other locations if you & others want to. But speaking personally, not for anyone else, my main focus is likely to remain pretty much on the Southern Ocean & any new developments in the IWC this year. Also the progress of the Tokyo Two trial in Japan.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:19 pm
@msolga,
most of the other "whaling" countries are fishing for forms of dolphins whose numbers are much higher and breeding times much horter .Iceland took 900 "pothead pilot whales" last year and Faroians, and the other countries have essentially quit.
Japans bogus "research" is feeding a meat industry while little valuable research is even done. BUT, weve been over that again and again so its for JTT whose been resurrecting the horse
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
most of the other "whaling" countries are fishing for forms of dolphins whose numbers are much higher and breeding times much horter .Iceland took 900 "pothead pilot whales" last year and Faroians, and the other countries have essentially quit.


Interesting, farmer.
So apart from Iceland & Norway (which isn't an IWC member any more) & Russia, too (I think) .. which other nations apart from Japan are still whaling commercially?

Also, if you know, (I could Google if you're busy) is the "other" marine sanctuary, in the northern hemisphere, commercially whaled?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:50 pm
@JTT,
The fishing can be ignored, and was, I believe, until you began a digression about it, because this is a thread about whaling.

You're right that over-fishing is a catastrophe in waiting.


I don't know about other states, but my state has drastically reduced fishing limits and established some sanctuaries in important fish nurseries to try to address it. (Which are moves that have been strenuously fought by the people making their living by fishing, such being the pervasive short-sightedness of human nature.) We have also established a large aqua-culture industry to attempt to drain wild stocks less, and which lower and lower fishing limits has made financially viable.

This is why it is annoying when Japanese and South American boats come and take huge and illegal catches in our waters.....Australia IS trying to do something about it, and this illegal fishing is a threat to world supplies, not just ours. (Indonesians do a lot of illegal fishing in our waters, too, but not in the environmentally catastrophic way that Japan does.)

Of course, the whole subject is immensely complex, and probably deserves a thread of its own. The problems of countries with limited protein sources and the apparent health problems associated with farmed fish being just two of them. Perhaps, if you are so concerned (and it is a just concern) you might like to start a thread?

However, that is not the subject of this thread, and, were I Msolga, I would simply ignore your digressions about it from now on. I shall.

As to the focus on the Southern Ocean....well, I don't think Australia can do a lot about the northern hemisphere whaling, except do what it can in the IWC, which it does.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:52 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
This is why it is annoying when Japanese and South American boats come and take huge and illegal catches in our waters.....Australia IS trying to do something about it,
Packwood-Magneson has some good stuff in it that maybe you can use, now that JTT has brought it up.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
most of the other "whaling" countries are fishing for forms of dolphins whose numbers are much higher and breeding times much horter .Iceland took 900 "pothead pilot whales" last year and Faroians, and the other countries have essentially quit.
Japans bogus "research" is feeding a meat industry while little valuable research is even done. BUT, weve been over that again and again so its for JTT whose been resurrecting the horse


The documentary "The Cove" is nominated for an award this year and will surely bring attention to the needless slaughter of the bottlenose dolphin in Japan:

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:03 pm
@Irishk,
Yes,,,I have been hearing about this film.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:05 pm
@farmerman,
As I said, over-fishing is a digression on this thread, and I think JTT has just brought it up to try to browbeat Msolga.

I'll not be drawn into discussing it on this whaling thread again.

As I said, though, it looks set to be a global catastrophe, as far as I can see.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:12 pm
conservative
conservation

somehow the words seem related to me.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:13 pm
conservative
conservation

somehow the words seem related to me.
cost=benefit is another concept that comes to mind.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:20 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
As I said, over-fishing is a digression on this thread


May I endorse your suggestion that someone create a new thread on this subject, Deb?

I'd most certainly be interested. I want to know more, definitely.

I think it's an important subject which we can't really do justice to here.



0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 08:39 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:

You're right that over-fishing is a catastrophe in waiting.

This is why it is annoying when Japanese and South American boats come and take huge and illegal catches in our waters.....Australia IS trying to do something about it, and this illegal fishing is a threat to world supplies, not just ours. (Indonesians do a lot of illegal fishing in our waters, too, but not in the environmentally catastrophic way that Japan does.)

As to the focus on the Southern Ocean....well, I don't think Australia can do a lot about the northern hemisphere whaling, except do what it can in the IWC, which it does.

Bold added. Whether the subject is fishing or whaling, a common element is just what are Australian waters? International law generally recognizes territorial waters as those within 12 miles of the coastline. An additional economic zone is recognized out in some cases as far as 200 miles offshore. Beyond that no territorial rights whatever are deemed to exist.

Norway and Iceland tried for years to claim control of the rich herrring fishery in the Norwegian Sea between the two countries for many years - and without success. British, French and (enormous) Russian fishing fleets still operate there.
 

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