13
   

OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 01:58 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Yes, there have been voted-rigging episodes within the IWC (including by the Japanese, I might add.) As I said, earlier, it is hardly a perfect organization. However the Japanese, if they disagree with IWC decisions, can choose to leave the organization, rather than stay within it and flout its decisions. Other countries have chosen to do this.


It's best to keep slippery folk close by so you can watch them.

Quote:
Indeed, Japan is by no means the only nation which has depleted fish stocks. But it is by far the worst offender.

http://geociti.es/RainForest/4620/overfishing.htm


Is Japan really the worst offender, MsOlga? I think that Japan is simply an easy target for folks who want to make a point.

Quote:
However, it would be wrong to blame Japan for the serious decline in Asia Pacific fish stocks. No country keeps better records on catches and monitors stocks and environment damage than Japan. Japan has even cut the size of its commercial fishing fleet by a quarter and reduced the number of factory boats. The overfishing problem is generated by the fishing fleets of other nations scrambling to supply Japan with the fruits of the sea, in particular the prized tuna.


I believe that Australians also supply the Japanese market with "the prized tuna". I believe they ask for market price.

For others, it is simply outright racism. Japan "devours", Australians, bless their little hearts, only "manage [to consume]"

Quote:
The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates Japan devours 30 per cent of the world's fresh fish, close on 80 kilograms a year for each man, woman and child. Australians manage just 18 kilos.


Some quick figuring brings us this perspective:

Country / Population / consumption per capita / Total consumption

[figures for per capita consumption are for 1999-2001]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

China 1,335,960,000 / 25.4kg per person / 33,934,400,000 kg

Japan 127,470,000 / 66.0kg per person / 8,382,000,000 kg

USA 308,725,000 / 21.3kg per person / 6,560,400,000 kg

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Population figures from

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:XleCxv8ch9IJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population+population+by+country+2008&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Per capita consumption figures from,

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:_YHPydhjSOUJ:www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/fus/fus04/08_perita2004.pdf+seafood+consumption+by+country&hl=en&gl=ca
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:32 pm
@Setanta,
USA per capita consumption 1999

beef45.3kg - poultry49.4kg - pork31.7kg = 126.4kg /year

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1370_per_capita_consumption_of_meat_and.html

Jesus wept, that's over three fourths of a pound per day.

Really, that's just obscene.

=====================

Well, it's not obscene. What that is, is arrant stupidity, bordering on racist.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 03:19 pm
@JTT,
A whale is not a fish BTW. The whale breeds and produces offspring at a rate of 1 calf per 18 months to 2+ years in gestation. Replacement stock is a problem when one takes out a breeding stock at rate that is roughly a few percent of its lifespan.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 12:29 am
I just checked, & the next annual IWC meeting will be in Agadir, Morocco, starting in late May of this year.

http://iwcoffice.org/meetings/meeting2010.htm

So far no resolutions for discussion have been published, but it's sounding like there'll be a very full agenda!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:03 am
@msolga,
Another update:

Quote:
NZ may join anti-whaling lawsuit
By Claire Trevett
4:00 AM Monday Feb 22, 2010


http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/whale_460x23018608.jpg
Australia warns it will go to the International Court of Justice if Japan does not stop whaling. Photo / A

Foreign Minister Murray McCully says New Zealand will consider joining any legal action to force Japan to stop whaling in the Southern Ocean if diplomatic channels fail.

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd last week put a deadline of November on his warnings to Japan that Australia would go to the International Court of Justice if it did not halt whaling.


Mr McCully said he remained hopeful of some success through diplomatic channels, a process he expected to end in "weeks not months".

"If that's successful we'll be delighted. If there is failure then obviously the ICJ proposition [Mr Rudd] has spoken of is one New Zealand has always been open to considering."

Labour's foreign affairs spokesman Chris Carter and anti-whaling group Sea Shepherd have both called for Mr McCully to pledge to join any ICJ action.

However, Mr McCully said it was not a straightforward decision whether New Zealand became a party to the ICJ action, despite it holding the same views on whaling as Australia.

He was getting "extensive advice" on the issue and was in touch with Australia's Foreign Minister Stephen Smith.

"New Zealand and Australia have never had identical policies, but we have policies that are the same in substance. We both want to achieve an elimination of whaling in the Southern Ocean at the earliest possible date." ... <cont>


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10627695
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:40 am
@msolga,
Cool.

If it happens.

I guess that would sort out the legalities, no?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 02:08 am
@msolga,
Dear Deb

I think both of us are old enough to remember the Rainbow Warrior?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

I'm absolutely certain that many New Zealanders have never forgotten what happened.

Here we are, two tiny, totally insignificant nations, who actually care about whales, our immediate environment... & who are constantly pushed around & bullied by far more "important" nations.

Will we be effective?

Who knows? Against the might of vested interests against us. I honestly don't know.

But, at the very least, we have the right to say (loudly!) we are deeply offended and absolutely disgusted by what has been happening in the Southern Ocean. We object about how whales are treated as part of some "industry". It appalls us.



dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 02:10 am
@msolga,
Well, that was French murder, because of nuclear testing....but absolutely.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 02:21 am
@dlowan,
Yes it was. I agree.

But pretty much the same sort of treatment to regional feeling & concerns, as I see it.



dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:08 am
@msolga,
Never mind the whales...kill the French!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 07:54 am
It is not only appropriate to point out that whales are not fish, but also to make a distinction between wild food sources, such as whales and fish, and domestic animals. Cattle, sheep, hogs and poultry are raised to be slaughtered and eaten, whereas, of course, whales and wild fish are not. When John Cabot first described what we now call the Grand Banks, he stated that the cod were so thick in the water that it appreciably slowed his ship. I wasn't there, so i can't know, but i suspect that was hyperbole. Others, willfully indulging hyperbole, said you could almost get out and walk.

But wild populations are not sustainable as domestic livestock are. The passenger pigeon is gone, period. There is serious doubt about whether there is sufficient genetic diversity in the surviving population of Atlantic cod for the species to survive. With whales, wild salmon, wild cod and many other species of wild fish, it is doubtful if several of these species can survive. We're not going to run out of cattle, sheep, hogs and poultry--the same cannot be said about whales and wild fish species.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 11:48 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
But wild populations are not sustainable as domestic livestock are.


There goes half of FM's famous recipes.

Caught out in an orgasm of hyperbole, Set now pleads his case with a more reserved hyperbole.



Quote:
We're not going to run out of cattle, sheep, hogs and poultry--the same cannot be said about whales and wild fish species.


More hyperbole.

Under certain conditions, many caused by man, some not, certain species have and will continue to go extinct. Others will not. As mankind grows to numbers that are unsustainable, so too will many of "us" go.

Way too much hyperbole surrounding this whole issue.

Anybody up for a kangaroo sanctuary. No crops planted that kangaroos don't like, no crops harvested til kangaroos have had their fill, a fair measure set aside for the roos in the off season, no domestic animals to compete with kangaroos for forage, no more of Quantas exploiting them without fair compensation, ...

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 12:16 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Here we are, two tiny, totally insignificant nations, who actually care about whales, our immediate environment... & who are constantly pushed around & bullied by far more "important" nations.


"bullied", MsOlga? What would threatening a lawsuit be when there isn't a legal leg to stand on? Has Mr Rudd laid out his "legal" concerns? Is his brief going to be that "we are two tiny nations who actually care about whales"?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 12:51 pm
@JTT,
1treaty violation

2taking resources without standing

3 self dealing

4fraud

Those are just 4 off the top of my head. Imsure the Rudd admin can come up with several dozen more. BTW hes only threatened lawsuits IF and ONLY IF, no agreement with JApan can be reached.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:56 pm
@farmerman,
You're clearly no legal expert, FM.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:57 pm
@JTT,
Probably been in court waaay more times than you skipper.

A caae can be brought in international courts based on many different bases. If you deny any of the above gimme your best shot
-------------------------
Hell, you didnt even know that a whale isnt a fish Laughing
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 02:48 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Hell, you didnt even know that a whale isnt a fish


Farmerman, please.

Quote:
Probably been in court waaay more times than you skipper.


So what are you serving now?

A case can be brought in any court for any number of "bases". How long it last is another thing.

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 03:44 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
"bullied", MsOlga?


Yup

Quote:
Is his brief going to be that "we are two tiny nations who actually care about whales"?


Nope.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 03:52 pm
@msolga,
There were two other pertinent questions, MsOlga.

What would threatening a lawsuit be but "bullying" when there isn't a legal leg to stand on?

Has Mr Rudd laid out his "legal" concerns?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 03:57 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
What would threatening a lawsuit be but "bullying" when there isn't a legal leg to stand on?
.

Spoken like a true "expert" on international law. Im always amazed at the talent we display on these boards.
 

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