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Can divine punishment be unjustified?

Forums: Spirituality And Religion
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I believe that divine punishment can be unjustified, I am simply undecided about whether God exists or not, and in the eyes of God, if those eyes exist, I am a sinner, because I smoke, and have probably done various other things that would qualify as sinning, but if God is all-powerful, he or she will be able to put him or herself in my position, become me for a period in time, and therefore completely understand my justifications for questioning his or her's existence, God would be able to see how I have grown up through my life and therefore be able to see exactly why I question religion. So if God can see this, how can he punish me?

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maybe. it can be exaggerated and widely misunderstood, too. a lot of things "god does" are a lot more reasonable when viewed as a metaphor, rather than black and white.

it's not a copout, you don't have to assume god exists to talk about him in the first place. if you don't assume he exists, why assume that he wants everything to be taken literally?

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I got the best answers to all these questions you have from the book by Neale Donald Walsch called Conversations with God. There are 3 books to this series and the best reasoning I've ever heard before about how God would feel, or not feel, about what we do.
I encourage you to read these... it might help with some of your thoughts and questions.

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Re: Can divine punishment be unjustified?

Gilbey wrote:

I believe that divine punishment can be unjustified, I am simply undecided about whether God exists or not, and in the eyes of God, if those eyes exist, I am a sinner, because I smoke, and have probably done various other things that would qualify as sinning, but if God is all-powerful, he or she will be able to put him or herself in my position, become me for a period in time, and therefore completely understand my justifications for questioning his or her's existence, God would be able to see how I have grown up through my life and therefore be able to see exactly why I question religion. So if God can see this, how can he punish me?

Welcome to the forum, Gilbey. You are really no different from all of us other clods when it comes to not meeting up to God's standards.

But God understands that and forgives.

For what its worth, the bible explains why we were put here, why we are imperfect, (when intended for perfection) and why we have war and crime and sickness and death. It also explains the remedy God has set in motion to set these things straight. You can learn all this. It was written so anyone could understand without the help of the clergy.

Have fun.

Hanging around here will give you plenty of information, some good, some not so good. You will have to judge for yourself. But this isn't a bad place to start.

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God could see things your way and still judge/punish you because you could be wrong. The maleficence of your ways could in fact exist, do so in a manner beyond justification, and be perfectly apparent to the guy who delivers your pizzas as well as the almighty. It's a non-sequitur to assume understanding implies condolence. In my experience, the opposite is true-familiarity breeds contempt, especially if the one becoming familiar is more or less superior.

The solution as I see it is to judge God-He's got the stacked deck, so what accusation can we make that wouldn't be implicitly or explicitly valid? And what are His magnanimous gifts compared to the gift of someone being cool and letting you into their lane of traffic when doing so slow them down and might cost them 10 seconds of something awesome when their day ends?

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it will be nice to see neo and hanno sort this all out. personally i think neo has too many answers (only just,) and not enough questions, but then that's what i count on him for.

after all, if you're going to ask...

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hanno wrote:

God could see things your way and still judge/punish you because you could be wrong. The maleficence of your ways could in fact exist, do so in a manner beyond justification, and be perfectly apparent to the guy who delivers your pizzas as well as the almighty. It's a non-sequitur to assume understanding implies condolence. In my experience, the opposite is true-familiarity breeds contempt, especially if the one becoming familiar is more or less superior.

The solution as I see it is to judge God-He's got the stacked deck, so what accusation can we make that wouldn't be implicitly or explicitly valid? And what are His magnanimous gifts compared to the gift of someone being cool and letting you into their lane of traffic when doing so slow them down and might cost them 10 seconds of something awesome when their day ends?

In order to judge God, you would have to know more about him. IMHO

You might find him a lot more fair than you make him out.

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Quote:

In order to judge God, you would have to know more about him. IMHO

If God does in fact exist, I don't disagree with this statement. however, I'd say that if then he/she has done a poor job of letting mankind get to know him or her, and that it isn't unreasonable for God to choose more common communication practices when contacting individuals.

There are certainly no shortage of people who claim to have met god or experianced god, but their claims rarely profound.

I'd say that if god is above judegement, then there should be nothing for god to hide. Being more forthright seems to be a better show of honesty than manifesting itself in singular manifestations to a limited part of the population.

I say if God exists, we diserve to be able to know and judge it.

T
K
Only God doesn't check his voicemail.

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neo: we can be told that god is merciful, but resolving the other evidence we have isn't easy, if we care about people at all- which we're told (in the bible) we're meant to. that's something atheists frequently have over believers, particularly when talking about "christians."

as for knowing god, we're *effectively* finite here, he's not, god is unknowable. we can't weigh his fairness, but you want to assume it. assuming it is fine- asking someone else to assume it is fine, but assuming it's reasonable to ask that of someone is odd. i feel that's your attitude. hey, that's nothing new of course, no worries.

but i think god must be unknowable, and i think you'll find the bible even says so, if you go looking for it. i'm not really sure- that's the point, eh?

i don't think any reasonable person is too sure. (but it's possible to be reassured.)

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The way I look at it.

God exists -
If I believe in God and he truly does exist and forgives my imperfections (which He created), I go to Heaven and all is well for eternity. If I don't believe in God, and he exists, I am screwed.

If he doesn't exist and I believe, nothing happens anyway, so what's the harm in believing?

I think that people always get what they deserve when it comes to divine justice. We might not always see that justice (ie, they go to prision or what not) but everyone gets what they deserve in time. Good or bad. A person who doesn't have it so well here on earth will get his/her just reward for all eternity. Our lives here are simply an eye blink in time so the suffering we have here is nothing compared to the rest of eternity being rewarded for being a good person. Heaven is, IMO, everything that's right and good in this world.

I am not a "bible thumper" or a "jesus freak" but I do believe that everything happens because it is suppose to happen and that all actions do eventually have a consequence. The people who hurt you gilray in this life will get their due. Either here on earth or later. Christianity isn't the only religion who teaches this. Karma, reincarnation...all those things speak of actions having divine consequences. What you do comes back to you three fold.

As well, smoking will not get you punished. God has bigger fish to fry.

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Quote:

If I don't believe in God, and he exists, I am screwed.

not by any reasonable god worth believing in.

Quote:

If he doesn't exist and I believe, nothing happens anyway, so what's the harm in believing?

also known as pascal's wager. it doesn't work unless you know which gods to believe in. the christians say it's the christian god. the hindu's say it's the hindu gods. the buddhists say believe what works for you, and buddha is worshipped, but isn't a god. this is why pascal's wager is useless, except in a conversation about failed philosophical arguments.

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Re: Can divine punishment be unjustified?

Gilbey wrote:

I believe that divine punishment can be unjustified, I am simply undecided about whether God exists or not, and in the eyes of God, if those eyes exist, I am a sinner, because I smoke, and have probably done various other things that would qualify as sinning, but if God is all-powerful, he or she will be able to put him or herself in my position, become me for a period in time, and therefore completely understand my justifications for questioning his or her's existence, God would be able to see how I have grown up through my life and therefore be able to see exactly why I question religion. So if God can see this, how can he punish me?

Those who are punished, whether it be by parents, government or God, usually view punishment as unjustified. Nothing new about that. It is human nature to justify our actions even when others view them as unjustified.

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just as it's obviously "in our nature" to un-justify things, to make up reasons to judge people for arbitrary, unimportant things that bother our ego, and to hide our pathetic, petty judgements behind the shabby veneer of "well, god said it!"

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Re: Can divine punishment be unjustified?

Gilbey wrote:

I believe that divine punishment can be unjustified, I am simply undecided about whether God exists or not, and in the eyes of God, if those eyes exist, I am a sinner, because I smoke, and have probably done various other things that would qualify as sinning, but if God is all-powerful, he or she will be able to put him or herself in my position, become me for a period in time, and therefore completely understand my justifications for questioning his or her's existence, God would be able to see how I have grown up through my life and therefore be able to see exactly why I question religion. So if God can see this, how can he punish me?

pondering whether divine punishment can sometimes be unjustified implies belief in a Divine Punisher- who sometimes gets it wrong. So you cant be undecided about whether God exists or not.

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This trick is getting overdone by my side, but factoring out all the soft emotional crap it's hard to argue with dignity; If there is a God and eternal bliss then it's not really my tail on the line when I drive my open-differential ship-of-dreams in the snow, cuz I'll just wake up on the other side. But if that's the case then I've got no reason to believe it-so God gets to know what time it is while I stumble around like a johnny-banana. I'm the cosmic spaniel and if I knew best I'd roll on my back when kicked. His dignity is then in a dimension apart from mine and that of my kind. If we're not working in the same system of units what basis is there for meaningful comparison?

It would be like exterminating all the shark-pups that engage in prenatal-fratricide; the whole aesthetic of the organism and its ecosystem would be fouled. On the other hand if a shark-pup manages to snarl up at me from the bottom of my fishing boat and even just be the type of creature that would love to gore my hand as I try to unhook it-the shark's got no idea what's going on but the little bastard's got dignity, my brand of dignity and it's own...

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If I believe in God and he truly does exist and forgives my imperfections (which He created)

If God created your imperfections, how can he hold you responsible for them, that would seem unfair

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Steve 41oo, the only reason I am assuming God exists is for the purpose of trying to explain why I think that divine punishment can be unjustified, God has to exist for divine punishment to exist, so if I believed God didnt exist then my point would be irrelevent, and I wouldnt feel the need to raise it.

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Gilbey wrote:

If God created your imperfections, how can he hold you responsible for them, that would seem unfair

that's a very odd idea, isn't it? this is another part of the bible that literally makes NO SENSE. however, i think it's useful as a metaphor, but that's only possible when the bible is read with an open mind- not just towards god, but towards creation. i think that's how you're supposed to read it, but it's not very common. the alternative is that you read it with an eye to judge people?

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Gilbey wrote:

If I believe in God and he truly does exist and forgives my imperfections (which He created)

If God created your imperfections, how can he hold you responsible for them, that would seem unfair

That would be unfair as you state it. But your premise is unfounded. God created man with free will and man chose imperfection by choosing disobedience.

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hmm.

I've always been bothered by this part of the Christian beliefs.

Even if Adam and Eve made the choice to eat from the tree of knowledge, the consequence being the fall of man, doesn't that support the idea that we are to answer for other's faults imperfections?

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

If one man choses imperfection, then the course to follow would be to give nothing but inperfection to the rest of mankind?

If we were perfect, and had free will. Doesn't it follow that we would make the perfect choices? It seems that there was a problem prior to any eating of fruit if you ask me.

T
K
O

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