What BOOK are you reading right now?

My understanding of this slang term is that at some point in the 18th Century the British Admiralty deemed (quite correctly) that the near-epidemic occurrence of scurvy among British seamen was due to a lack of citrus fruits in their diet aboard ship. So thenceforth British sailors were not only provided with plenty of lemons, limes, oranges etc. but actually, by the orders issued from on high, required to consume these sources of Vitamin C. (Nobody, of course, knew anything about Vitamin C or any other vitamins back in those days.) As a result, British seamen came to known far and wide as always sucking on a lemon or a lime lest they wished to risk some lashes from the cat o' nine. Hence, American sailors began to call them 'Limeys" and the slightly derrogatory term was eventually expanded to include all Englishmen.

You're welcome, fm.

They were given their allotment of beer (and later rum) too! That was way back in the 17th century.

Oh, that allotment continued right into modern times, c.i. Most navies issued a rum ration to its sailors.

no prob. I always thought they carried potatoes for the scurvy thing. They keep whereas citrus has a "best if used- by date"

Misquoted. The rump fed ronyon was the sailors wife who told the witch to aroint.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/lind-scurvy-vitamin-C.php

Lemons were found better than limes, but were harder to obtain, otherwise you might be calling us Lemonies.

I didn't quote anybody. I just used a well known expression Shakespeare must have heard somewhere.

The correct quote is --""Aroint thee, witch!" the rump-fed ronyon cries."

Aroint was a country expression. Rynt. Ronyon means mangy or scabby.

Perhaps hinge had it about right. We do come over as a bit precious at times.

I just finished Confessions Of A Shopaholic. A really great read. I had it pending for a few days.

just finished re-reading it

I think I'll read it again. Soon.

the play Macbeth, not the dude hisself. The fact that he let out the more inflammatory words is a cheap out.

The French had it beat for almost 2 hundred years before the Admiralty unified the treatment. Potatos WERE the first scurvy treatment but only the Spanih knew of this for a century.
The French , s early as Cartier, would boil up nd make "Spruce teas" out of needles an bark. This was 100% effective and was used almost exclusively since the early 1600's. Almost ALL of Cartiers men came down with scurvy and a dozen or more died (out of 120 crewmen) . When he began the treatment via the spruce tea, his men recovered within a few days.

The Brits were among the last to understand how the vitamin c would be used to combat scurvy. That's why I was wondering how they even deserved the appellation?

I know you meant the play. That's why I talked of the witches and sailor's wife, not the Thane of Glamis.

I've taught Macbeth to a succession of classes over the years. I know it really well, probably too well. I'd much rather have taught some of his other plays, break up the monotony a bit.

Maybe because we had a controlled experiment as opposed to folklore.

The Brits were the only ones who stressed citrus fruits as a sovereign remedy. American sailors got used to seeing their British colleagues sucking on lemons and limes; hence... "Limey."

There was never a "controlled experiment" in the Royal Navy. Anson's expedition in 1740-43 lost more than half of the sailors and soldiers to scurvy. Although the estimates online are wildly inflated (most suggest 1400 our of 1900 sailors and soldiers--but there were more than 2000 sailors and soldiers, and likely the death toll was about 1100), the loss of life to scurvy was appalling enough as it was. Cook used sourkraut as an antiscorbutic, and that was as much folklore as any other remedy. Cook's record of almost (but not quite) no losses to scurvy was more a product of the fresh fruits and vegetables he obtained whenever he put ashore. Sailors of the Royal Navy didn't suck on limes, at least not commonly. They were given lime juice in their daily grog. However, in the 18th century parlance, it was "sophisticated," meaning it was adulterated, and actually contained very little lime juice--continuing the centuries long practice of theft in office in the Royal Navy. Rates of scurvy were low in the United States Navy for the same reason they were low on Cook's expeditions--they commonly put into port and bought fresh fruits and vegetables. The U.S. Navy had funds for that, though, because Congress provided them, and because of the slush fund. When salt pork or salt beef was seethed prior to being served, the fat was skimmed off and put into kegs. This was known as the slush, and it was the perquisite of the cook--after it was used on shipboard as a lubricant. Bosuns in the Royal Navy traditionally practiced theft in office, with a modest amount of ship's stores going over the side when ever they made port. They would sell off a certain amount of the slush for the ship's cooks, taking a cut of the proceeds. It was not until the days of John Barrow, the first permanent civil servant in Britain, that theft in office was curbed in the Royal Navy. (This was in the first half of the 19th century--Barrow was the permanent Second Secretary of the Admiralty for more than 40 years, and in that office, he was responsible for the great exploratory voyages of the arctic and the antarctic, as well as the mapping expeditions such as those carried out by HMS Beagle. He was responsible for a great many reforms, such as the suppression of flogging, and the accounting reforms which virtually ended theft in office.)

Parliament was very stingy, which fostered theft in office. Congress was very generous, and American ship's captains almost always had the funds needed to buy fresh provisions for their crews. Their accounting system was put into effect long before Barrow's time at the Admiralty, and among other ship's stores, slush had to be accounted for. Ship's chandlers would buy kegs of slush, and sell them at a tidy profit. Merchant ships had the same need for shipboard lubricants as naval vessels, but they didn't have hundreds of sailors and soldiers eating their head's off every day, so there was a good market for those kegs of slush. In the United States Navy, the First Lieutenant was responsible for the accounting of ship's stores, and among those things for which he accounted werethe kegs of slush. The proceeds of the sale of the slush was kept for the crew's health and welfare, and was known as the slush fund. In Barrow's time, with the Navy greatly reduced after the wars with France, he was able to successfully lobby for the funds necessary to keep ship's stores generous and properly accounted for. It was by that means that Barrow was able to end theft in office in the Navy.

Theoretically, the lime juice used in the sailors' grog in the Royal Navy would have been the antiscorbutic in their diet. However, there was so little lime juice in the kegs of lime juice that they bought, that it barely served the purpose. Certainly there wasn't enough to rise to the level of a "controlled experiment." Buying "sophisticated" lime juice from thieving contractors was just another part of the corrupt system of theft in office by Admiralty staff. Once again, in his more than 40 years at the Admiralty, Barrow was able to end that practice, and his exploratory expeditions were very well supplied. The United States Navy had a "beer day" authorized by Congress, but as the Navy was almost constantly on operations from 1794 onward, beer day was often curtailed by the ships' commanders. Finally, in 1914, alcohol aboard ship was outlawed by the Secretary of the Navy. The United States Navy could not, therefore, rely on "grog" to provide an antiscorbutic. There was no "controlled experiment" in the United States Navy, either--but all navies knew that fresh fruits and vegetables would end scurvy in a crew, so Congress provided the funds, and ships' captains saw to it that fresh supplies were provided as often as possible. During the wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars, the Royal Navy operated close to home or near foreign ports often enough that if they really had been conducting a "controlled experiment," they would have quickly identified effective antiscorbutics. As it was, their crews got supplies of fresh food often enough that the incidence and prevalence of scurvy fell off dramatically from the rates in the War of the Austrian Succession (also known as the War of Jenkins' Ear, that was the era of Anson's circumnavigation) and the Seven Years War.

Corruption, neglect, stupidity and poor navigation killed thousand of sailors and soldiers in the world's navies before ascorbic acid was finally identified.

How else would you describe the procedure Lind carried out?

945 words and not one mention of Lind's experiment. Going round the houses to avoid looking at the case in question. An attempt to "blind with science," or give so much information to avoid the specifics.

It's a cheap shot, and says a lot about you.

This is what Wikpedia says.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy

Do you know what a controlled experiment means? Who were the control group? What control or controls were imposed on them? Go read the Wikipedia article on James Lind. He never identified the cause of scurvy, and his control groups were so small as to be meaningless--as well as combining dietary supplements which did not, therefore, point to the effective antiscorbutics. As close as he came was to hold the opinion that acidic foods would cure scurvy. That's in the ballpark, but it's a foul ball.

Of course, you find it impossible to reply without the vicious personal comments. I see you decided to go back to insert those by editing. It's a cheap shot, and it says a lot about you. Pointing out that there was no controlled experiment is not a personal attack on you, but you can't handle any criticism or contradiction. Now get all hysterical and start throwing out one accusation after another.

You can claim a clinical trial is not a controlled experiment, but you're just playing semantics, and showing a desire to argue for arguments sake and belittle any British achievement.

I repeat, your original post was 945 words long without one mention of Lind or his procedure. Of course it was a cheap shot.

Yes indeed, hysteria and wild accusations. I expect nothing else from you.