my problem with atheists

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if you came here looking for me to say atheists are wrong, or i don't like them, don't bother- i think atheists are great, i used to be one, i decided that agnosticism was more logical.

i don't have a monopoly on logic, it's a complex thing, so i wouldn't say for certain that agnosticism is more logical than atheism, but it seems that way to me. and even if agnosticism is more logical, there are good things that benefit mankind about a belief in no god (strong atheism) or a lack of a belief in god (weak atheism, where atheism sort of bleeds into agnosticism)

(however technically i think you can be agnostic and believe it's impossible to know if god exists, and decide to believe in god anyway. this would be a theist agnostic, but i've only heard of such a thing once, and the person might have been joking.)

but when i talk about atheists, i'm usually talking about strong atheists that firmly believe (and preach!) that there is no god.

again, this is a perfectly acceptable belief to me. there have been many strong atheists in my life who had a profound impact on my thinking, and i'm grateful. atheists have something to offer any world that values thought, hopefully this one does.

and i grew up strong atheist, i wasn't pushed into it, i was raised with the knowledge that i would be accepted regardless of what i believed, my family never talked about religion or atheism, we had bibles and science books in the house, i lived in a city where jesus is quite a big deal indeed, and yet for my first years i firmly believed this "god thing" was the most ridiculous thing i ever heard. believe me, i can relate.

it's not atheism that bothers me. another thing that doesn't bother me is christianity. christianity seems okay to me. so does judaism. so does buddhism. when islam is living up to its name, i think that's fine too.

what bothers me is when people believe something with such zeal that they forget that other people have access to logic and "god" as well. obviously "god" has to be put in quotes here, but i wasn't only talking about atheists when i mentioned it.

logic really is a complex thing. i mean on one level, things work in real black and white. nice boolean logic. "if p then q." but one of those letters is context, and if you change the context, the conclusion is subject to change as well.

atheists and theists work in a very different context, and i try to work in both. to me it's possible to say:

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if p AND you're operating from an atheist perspective then q = "there is no god"

if p AND you're operating from a theist perspective then q = "there is a god"

p is a realm of black and white logic, and perspective is whether you choose to count or discount everything we don't know. you notice that whether you believe in god or not, the actual ontology remains open for both equations.

i don't know how shaky or solid this thinking is, but i firmly believe that it's possible for there to both be a god and for there to be no god. in short, i am completely confident that atheists and theists CAN both be right.

that's not the problem either. basically i agree with atheists on the subject of arrogant christians. i don't like them either. christians should know better than to get puffed up in their beliefs, wearing them like a badge that makes them superior to non-christians. i know lots of christians that don't do this. i know lots of atheists that don't do it either.

my problem is when atheists do it. (or when christians do.) i really hate this. your beliefs alone don't make you better than other people, your logic alone doesn't make you better than other people. i really don't think being able to grasp something as basic as there is a god or something as basic as there is no god something to brag about anyway.

any child can do that.

and who says grownups are smarter than children for that matter? usually, adults have more experience, but haven't you ever met an adult that you're absolutely certain has none?

we all have shortcomings, in personal integrity (hopefully very few) and in logic. i'm not a christian, but i wish there was a "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

let he who is right about everything cast the first stone, i guess that's what i'm really trying to say. and believe me, i never had perfect marks, not with god, nor in philosophy. but we all have to do what we can, it doesn't mean we can't do it together.

thanks for taking a moment out, and godless secular blessings to you all.

(ramen.)

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Generally atheists don't have a problem until they run into that puffed up arrogance of the terminally religious. There's plenty of examples of them on this forum. The fact that they believe they're morally superior due to their faith drips off every word. I've reached the point where I don't really give a flying f@ck personally. But I'm absolutely desperate to protect my baby daughter from their psychological abuse. She's only 11 weeks old and that has already consumed a good deal of my thought.

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My thoughts run similar to yours, except, I am an unrepentant atheist. I don't need evidence that there is no god. The lack of evidence, plus the obvious wishful nature of belief, the self delusion involved, the "human" face of most people's god (even when they proclaim a disinterested god), and so much more, makes it more than obvious that god was created in a man-image.

Many of my best friends are Christian and a few are Buddhist. I have been on friendly terms with a number of Muslims. I have no problem with the religious, as individuals, mostly. It's the organized effort they make that runs afoul of my sense of fair play. That's when even the "good ones" are willing to vote for oppressive measures against the infidels and non-believers.

Zen, as I understand it, would be nearest to an acceptable religion for myself. But, even it is not on my agenda.

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In Europe and U.S., Nonbelievers Are Increasingly Vocal

By Mary Jordan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, September 15, 2007; Page A01

BURGESS HILL, England -- Every morning on his walk to work, high school teacher Graham Wright recited a favorite Anglican prayer and asked God for strength in the day ahead. Then two years ago, he just stopped.

Wright, 59, said he was overwhelmed by a feeling that religion had become a negative influence in his life and the world. Although he once considered becoming an Anglican vicar, he suddenly found that religion represented nothing he believed in, from Muslim extremists blowing themselves up in God's name to Christians condemning gays, contraception and stem cell research.

"I stopped praying because I lost my faith," said Wright, 59, a thoughtful man with graying hair and clear blue eyes. "Now I truly loathe any sight or sound of religion. I blush at what I used to believe."

Wright is now an avowed atheist and part of a growing number of vocal nonbelievers in Europe and the United States. On both sides of the Atlantic, membership in once-quiet groups of nonbelievers is rising, and books attempting to debunk religion have been surprise bestsellers, including "The God Delusion," by Oxford University professor Richard Dawkins.

New groups of nonbelievers are sprouting on college campuses, anti-religious blogs are expanding across the Internet, and in general, more people are publicly saying they have no religious faith.

More than three out of four people in the world consider themselves religious, and those with no faith are a distinct minority. But especially in richer nations, and nowhere more than in Europe, growing numbers of people are actively saying they don't believe there is a heaven or a hell or anything other than this life.

Many analysts trace the rise of what some are calling the "nonreligious movement" to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The sight of religious fanatics killing 3,000 people caused many to begin questioning -- and rejecting -- all religion.

"This is overwhelmingly the topic of the moment," said Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society of Britain. "Religion in this country was very quiet until September 11, and now it is at the center of everything."

Since the 2001 attacks, a string of religiously inspired bomb and murder plots has shaken Europe. Muslim radicals killed 52 people on the London public transit system in 2005 and 191 on Madrid trains in 2004. People apparently aiming for a reward in heaven were arrested in Britain last year for trying to blow up transatlantic jetliners. And earlier this month in Germany, authorities arrested converts to Islam on charges that they planned to blow up American facilities there.

Many Europeans are angry at demands to use taxpayer money to accommodate Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, which now has as many as 20 million followers on the continent. Along with calls for prayer rooms in police stations, foot baths in public places and funding for Islamic schools and mosques, expensive legal battles have broken out over the niqab, the Muslim veil that covers all but the eyes, which some devout women seek to wear in classrooms and court.

Christian fundamentalist groups who want to halt certain science research, reverse abortion and gay rights and teach creationism rather than evolution in schools are also angering people, according to Sanderson and others.

"There is a feeling that religion is being forced on an unwilling public, and now people are beginning to speak out against what they see as rising Islamic and Christian militancy," Sanderson said.

Continued
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2007091402501.html?wpisrc=newsletter

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Evangelicals of any stripe are insufferable. I'd sooner share a table with an evangelical atheist than with a Bible thumper only because I'd at least be able to nod mutely rather than exchange fruitless disagreements, but I rank evangelical atheists just below Ayn Randroids on the I-Will-Do-Anything-To-Shut-You-Up Meter.

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i don't know, i think you're going about it all wrong if you want to see an end to rabid evangelism.

if you want religious people to become more reasonable, you have to treat them like human beings. if you treat them like idiots, they'll become more self-righteous and yell louder.

i don't think i can convince you that i sympathise. nothing was more obnoxious and intolerable to me growing up than "HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?" "I DUNNO, HAVE YOU EVER USED YOUR EFFING BRAIN?"

and i wanted to fight religion and make the world better, but i've heard lots of beautiful things from people that want to make the world better just as much as you do. not from people that want to convert everyone (conversion en masse is not the goal of most religions, but it is of christianity and islam) but from people that have these irrational beliefs that you think hurt someone. what's the difference between science fiction, fantasy, and religion? that someone thinks it's real? have you ever been to a trek convention?

i think fiction is fine, actually. i think it can expand the mind. the problem is when people become too self-righteous. but if you think everyone is too self-righteous, then you're distracted by the yellers and the nonsense. but it's not the whole picture.

i worry about the future a bit. when the feminist movement started to gain power, it was a good thing. it is a good thing. women should never be underneath anyone, nor should men. nor should whites. nor should blacks. people should be on even ground.

sometimes the women's movement is about even ground, and i always support that. but if you look in the media, there's also a great deal of this idea that men are inferior. i saw an appalling commericial for lysol that said "because his aim isn't as good as he thinks."

imagine a similar ad for maxi pads, or painkillers or st john's wort... "because she's a f***ing mess that time of the month..." it would never happen! the person responsible would be harrassed for months.

this idea that one group of people should dominate or win, over the other group is a problem. domination shouldn't be happening in society at all. the religious should be perfectly entitled to their beliefs, without dominating people that don't share them. atheists should be equally entitled.

but that's not what we're talking about is it? we're not talking about fighting fire with water, are we? we're talking about fighting evangelism with evangelism.

it's a bit like an arms race. no weapon truly ends war, it just leads to bigger, more deadly weapons and tactics. me, i'm looking for another approach. i hope i'll find atheists to join me in that, but as atheists, not as theists. and if i don't, i'll understand- it's not the easiest thing to explain the advatage of, especially if to anyone set deeply in his beliefs.

i don't think most people believe star trek is real, but i think lots of people wish it was. i don't think there are as many people that believe in god than there people that wish he was real.

to me the question of what you believe is real isn't important- to me, what matters is what you think is right. and once there, there's a lot of common ground to work with. you can fight with people that basically agree with you, or you can enter dialogue with them. i'd rather a dialogue than a fight with friends any day, but i know which one takes more effort to be understanding. it's a tall order, once you involve other people, to ask them to consider such a thing. it's like asking them to say they're wrong, or give up their rights. it's not that, but you get the same reaction.

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I'll have to work up to reading all this. I am without theism, and that's all.

Back after I've read the posts about your problem with atheism.

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...to me the question of what you believe is real isn't important- to me, what matters is what you think is right...

I agree completely, but you've got a problem there. In terms of comparing fanatics, when it all comes down to it, you're just talking about God with atheists but the religiously fanatical very often bring a whole load of baggage with them. Mainly in the form of moral conduct. Whoever had a vicious/mean/nasty argument with a theist JUST for believing in God? Not too many I bet, it's the judgemental and authoritarian attitude that comes with it that angers people.

The problem I mentioned above though is that I worry for a greater number of people than I'm comfortable with, obsession with supposed "truth" IS more important than what is helpful for humanity. Sure they'll cover it up and justify that rule X will in fact be fruitful but they're not obsessed with these truths because they're for the benefit of mankind but because they're obsessed/inter-twined with the idea of God itself and God in some religions comes hand in hand with judgement and sub-ordination. I tend to think fanatics are just self-obsessed, perhaps some of the most self obsessed in the world (God obsession as God is traditionally conceived IS self obsession, it's an ideal that becomes integral to self identity and obsession is attachment). So that common ground that we'd all love to be there is wiped away and replaced with rigid/dogmatic rules of engagement based on the moral rules of the obsession in question. Just my opinions of course!

The reason I mentioned above about atheists/religious and the baggage element is also why I think most would find the fanatically atheist just a little more tolerable than the religionist - the common ground is only restricted in the area of God (presumably) with the atheist where as the religious bring other stuff to the table.

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but the religiously fanatical very often bring a whole load of baggage with them. Mainly in the form of moral conduct.

oh absolutely. i'm not saying "let theists be bastards!" i'm saying many aren't, many are decent people deserving decent treatment. the majority i think.

the nonsense that pisses you off isn't coming from the majority, it's coming from the easiest to notice. the really obnoxious ones form up to appear larger than life. the more of a minority they become the louder they get.

if you take american politics into account, it looks like they're winning, but that's too complex to go into.

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Whoever had a vicious/mean/nasty argument with a theist JUST for believing in God?

i've seen this so many times. baggage that theists can carry with them isn't the only issue. they leave baggage with atheists, atheists sick of the nonsense. and some (never the intention at any point to lump all atheists together, but i've seen this so many times!) atheists are so sick of the nonsense from theists they are ready to attack anyone that mentions a belief. i must disagree with you here, i've seen it countless times, it's normal.

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Not too many I bet, it's the judgemental and authoritarian attitude that comes with it that angers people.

in my experience, people can be just as proud of being logical as if they have a logical god on their side. oh, logic and reason are on my side! i'm not exaggerating. and just as we're all fools for not kowtowing to the god du jour, i see anyone remotely religious- even agnostics! treated as fools for not realizing that science is the only truth.

it isn't necessary. but i'm not being high and mighty here. if you are sick of preaching and it comes to a point when you're ready to lash out at a theist for being hypocrites/illogical/or just annoying, i understand. i've been there. and like everyone else, you're only human. but i'd be happier if this happened less often. we're only human, but we always have the opportunity to grow- from a totally secular humanist perspective. i believe that atheists and theists both have the capacity to coexist peacefully, that's all i want. it's all i'm talking about. i don't want anyone to bend over for them.

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i don't like zealots of any kinds. whether christian, or muslim, or hippie or atheist, you name it. when someone is in others' faces about their beliefs, that's crossing the line.
i am an atheist myself, though i did read the Bible, Koran, did a few months of meditation.... When it comes to religiou, I don't "get it", but I know and appreciate where it comes from and what it means to people. If they leave me alone, I leave them alone. I have good friends from many religious groups.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

i don't know, i think you're going about it all wrong if you want to see an end to rabid evangelism.

I didn't meant to give the impression that I was calling for an end rabid evangelism. I don't care what evangelists do; as with frat boys and Phish fans, I just find them wearisome to talk to. It is perfectly possible to have rational and reasonable discussions with believers and non-believers of any kind. It's when they mount the soapbox that they become evangelists, and it's at that point that "discussion" starts to feel like shouting at a rock.

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Well, I'll agree with shapeless, though I haven't read the thread yet.

Hasta manana.

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What I find interesting is that while many atheists do tell "believers" that he/she is an atheist, I have never heard an atheist point out that he/she also does not believe in the existence of a soul?

Or, am I coming to the wrong conclusion, and an atheist can believe in the existence of a soul?

I would guess atheism eliminates the concept of a soul, since believing in a God goes hand in hand, most of the time with a respective religion, where the soul is necessary for all the things the religion promises for those that subscribe.

Also God and religion believes in the duality of mind (in the brain but separate from the brain too?) I thought. Here again I've never heard an atheist tell a "believer" that he/she does not believe in the duality of mind.

From my own observations, I believe many atheists don't really confront "believers" with the depth of his/her non-belief. They leave it at "no belief in God." So, to the believer, an atheist might be thought of as someone like those that don't believe in the benefits of exercise. I've felt that "believers" just consider the non-God believing atheist unable to grasp the "logic" of a God in the universe. Atheism is truly an alien way to think for many believers, I think.

So, once believers feel that the existence of a God in the universe makes sense, it's likely an easy jump to believe that a "soul" and duality of mind also makes complete sense.

But, I don't confront everyone with these thoughts, since some people take their beliefs very seriously. Why spoil their picnic, so to speak?

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I'm an atheist. I do not believe in the existence of a soul.

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dagmaraka wrote:

i don't like zealots of any kinds. whether christian, or muslim, or hippie or atheist, you name it...

If they leave me alone, I leave them alone. I have good friends from many religious groups.

and that's how i feel about it. i could be wrong of course, but i think that sort of attitude is the one that would be most beneficial to everyone. i think lots of people take a "live and let live" approach, including most atheists and probably even most religious people. not the hardcore evangelists of course, but most people aren't.

as for a soul foofie, i suppose you could have a "soul" without a god- atheism essentially means "no god," but what kind of spirituality would someone have with no gods? maybe nature worship, but that's not really atheism?

i would assume that most atheists (by far) don't believe in souls. i didn't when i was a strong atheist. but i do think it's possible to reincarnate without a god. let me clarify: i'm not saying i believe in reincarnation. i'm saying if we do reincarnate, i think there are ways that could possibly happen without a spiritual component or deity being involved. reincarnation wouldn't be proof of a god, to me. i don't know if a soul would be.

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That was a refreshing post, Edgar.
I cannot be an agnostic because it implies that there MIGHT be a god, and that is beyond my imaginative capacity.
I reject any reference to supernaturalism. I AM religious in the sense that I consider myself to be one with my world (a zen conclusion), but this is a naturalistic perspective. Instead of an other-worldly religiousity which deprecates this life in favor of the future existence of a fictitious "soul", I prefer a THIS-WORLDLY religousity in which I take this life VERY seriously and not to be wasted.

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JLNobody wrote:

That was a refreshing post, Edgar.
I cannot be an agnostic because it implies that there MIGHT be a god, and that is beyond my imaginative capacity.
I reject any reference to supernaturalism. I AM religious in the sense that I consider myself to be one with my world (a zen conclusion), but this is a naturalistic perspective. Instead of an other-worldly religiousity which deprecates this life in favor of the future existence of a fictitious "soul", I prefer a THIS-WORLDLY religousity in which I take this life VERY seriously and not to be wasted.

Thank you, jl. I was on the verge of leaving the thread, but, you have given me cause to stick around.

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BM

And I might define myself and an agnostic on many subjects regarding spirituality. However, as a far as a God is concerned, I find myself agreeing with edgarblythe. The idea fundamentally anti rationalistic.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

...in my experience, people can be just as proud of being logical as if they have a logical god on their side. oh, logic and reason are on my side! i'm not exaggerating. and just as we're all fools for not kowtowing to the god du jour, i see anyone remotely religious- even agnostics! treated as fools for not realizing that science is the only truth.

it isn't necessary. but i'm not being high and mighty here. if you are sick of preaching and it comes to a point when you're ready to lash out at a theist for being hypocrites/illogical/or just annoying, i understand. i've been there. and like everyone else, you're only human. but i'd be happier if this happened less often. we're only human, but we always have the opportunity to grow- from a totally secular humanist perspective. i believe that atheists and theists both have the capacity to coexist peacefully, that's all i want. it's all i'm talking about. i don't want anyone to bend over for them.

Yeah I think you're right, I did understate the case, I've seen this too^. Having said that, I'd personally rather be called a fool because of logic than somehow morally sub-standard/sub-human because of "god", especially because of what I agree to be the reality behind the concept. The former is a bruise to the ego sure, the latter is a bit of sickener for me though. I guess I am an atheist but not because I believe in Science instead. I like the "beyond my imaginative capacity" noted above but also, if you, because of that, can only see God as being a human ideal, inextricably linked with the person who is idealising, you ask yourself, what is this ideal worth to me personally? Absolutely nothing for me, in fact it's damaging. Anyway, I'd say the fanatical moral judgements/baggage (see gay rights/abortion debates for example) are essentially arbitrary choices to hate and divide. Sad

I do know a decent number of atheists and theists who co-exist peacefully though. Smile

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I would like very much to conclude that non-theists and theists could co-exist with mutual respect, but FUNDAMENTALISM, whether it be Muslim or Christian, enjoins its followers to dominate, as their absolute moral obligation everyone not of their faith. This is the recipe for what we are seeing today. Christians and Muslims of non-fundamentalist orientation are, as I understand them, capable of "getting along" with others.

And I appreciate that most people find it impossible to live with the knowledge of their mortality and, for that reason, cling to ideologies that help them deny their inevitable end. But I know many universalist unitarians who seem to meet this need without feeling the need to dominate the unfaithful. If all Chrisitans were of that sort there would be no inter-faith conflict in the Christian world. In Islam the equivalents would be the Sufis.

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my problem with atheists

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