0
   

What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus

 
 
Zippo
 
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2007 02:00 pm
http://m1.2mdn.net/viewad/1351648/1-4524_EF_728.gif

What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus

by David Klinghoffer, Religion BookLine -- Publishers Weekly, 1/31/2007

Will Peter Schaefer's new book, Jesus in the Talmud (Mar.), be controversial? "I'm afraid so," Schaefer told RBL. "That's why I'm nervous."

His editor at Princeton University Press, Brigitta van Rheinberg, laughed but agreed: "You think, oh, whoa, this is not going to go over well in certain circles."

Schaefer, who heads up Princeton's Judaic studies program, has collected and analyzed all the passages in the Talmud that apparently refer to the founder of Christianity, texts that were previously censored from Talmud editions for centuries. In his book he argues-against other scholars-that the scandalous passages indeed refer not to some other figure of ancient times but to the famous Jesus of Nazareth.

What exactly is so scandalous? How about Jesus punished in Hell for eternity by being made to sit in a cauldron of boiling excrement? That image appears in early manuscripts of the Babylonian Talmud, as does a brief account of Jesus' trial and execution-not by the Romans but by the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin. The Jewish community, to the extent Jews were even aware of these excised texts, has been content to let them remain obscure and unknown.

Schaefer, a distinguished German-born Christian scholar who describes classical rabbinic literature as "my first love," has now definitively let the cat out of the bag. This undermines a widespread assumption that, of Judaism's and Christianity's respective sacred texts, only the Christian Gospels go out of their way to assail the rival faith, whereas Judaism's classical texts refrain from similar attacks.

It seems fair to say now, however, that the Talmud is every bit as offensive to Christians as the Gospels are to Jews.

The Talmud's scattered portrait of Jesus unapologetically mocks Christian doctrines including the virgin birth and the resurrection. Which isn't to say that the rabbinic invective is meant simply to insult. In his book, the author calls the Talmud's assault on Christian claims "devastating."

"It is a very serious argument," said Schaefer, who emphasizes that the rabbis' stories about Jesus were never intended as an attempt at historically accurate narrative. Rather, in the classic Talmudic style, they encode legal and theological argumentation in the form of sometimes-imaginative storytelling.

One naturally wonders, when Jesus in the Talmud is published, what the results will be for Jewish-Christian relations. "I certainly don't want to harm Jewish-Christian dialogue. God forbid," Schaefer said. But dialogue requires honesty, and "I'm trying to be honest."

publishersweekly

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20070130221619/www.publishersweekly.com/articles/images/PWK/20070131/booksbriefly250.jpg
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,092 • Replies: 22
No top replies

 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2007 11:14 pm
Re: What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus
the author of the book wrote:
I certainly don't want to harm Jewish-Christian dialogue. God forbid...

I'm trying to be honest.



it would be an interesting book to leaf through. for now, wikipedia tells a different story. whichever one is closer to the truth:

the talmud article on the wikinet wrote:
...Talmud makes little mention of Jesus directly or the early Christians. There are a number of quotes about individuals named Yeshu that once existed in editions of the Talmud; these quotes were long ago removed from the main text due to accusations that they referred to Jesus...

However, these removed quotes were preserved through... Hashmatot Hashas ("Omissions of the Talmud"). Some modern editions of the Talmud contain some or all of this material...

These passages do not necessarily refer to a single individual and many of the stories are far removed from anything written in the New Testament.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Sep, 2007 10:00 pm
What the New Testament says about Jesus is even worse. Revelation reveals or identifies Jesus as Lucifer.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Sep, 2007 10:25 pm
i can't say i agree with the conclusion, but you never know?
oh i love the "jesus is lucifer" guy on youtube, but he's way off on some of his ideas.

the morning star is venus for instance, he seems to think it's the sun. i mean it's one thing to say you think jesus is lucifer, it's another to reach that conclusion based on repeatedly mixing up two different things based on something you read elsewhere. he's working with symbols, that's great- but even if you interpret them your own way, you do need to keep track of them.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 05:49 pm
talk72000 wrote:
What the New Testament says about Jesus is even worse. Revelation reveals or identifies Jesus as Lucifer.


Where pray tell did you find this revelation in Revelation??
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 07:45 pm
Welcome to talk's Luciferian theory.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 09:02 pm
My own guess, based on how history played itself out, is the less than complimentary references to Jesus in the Talmud might have been made to prevent Jewish converts to Christianity.

However, once it was obvious that Jews were just not going to convert in great numbers, the references were put aside.

But, if the poster would give his spin/slant on this posting, it would give the reader a better idea of whether this posting is of any import, beyond the Jew/Christian titillation effect?

By the way, I didn't know Judaism believed in a Heaven and Hell in the Christian tradition. I thought they just believed in Resurrection at the end of time?
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 11:39 pm
a lot of religious traditions have come out of judaism, forming into several other religions. this makes a lot more sense when you realize there are many things christians might consider core beliefs that are anything but concrete in judaism.

heaven and hell are good examples. the idea that creationism must follow from accepting genesis may be nonsensical from a jewish perspective, "midrash" is a way of reading scripture from different angles and meaning. you're meant to, it's not supposed to be black and white.

rabbinically things often come from the other end, the laws are very black and white, as it is to not be polytheist. also, many jews consider pantheism to be incompatible with judaism. but from the beginning judaism has been a religion that evolved and changed in this aspect and many others.

the jewish perspective regarding the afterlife varies greatly, but there is enough to form the basis of a heaven, it's just not a major focus of the religion, instead the messianic age is very important.

the persian mythology that was picked up along missionary travels became the hell of christianity, "sheol" in judaism from what i've learned about it is far more like the "infinite perspective vortex" in douglas adams's hitchiker's "trilogy." i'm sure i'm oversimplifying it, but if you've lived as a decent human being, it's not hell at all. either way, it's a form of complete awareness.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 12:42 am
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 12:49 am
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew)
"How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Helel, son of Shahar!
how art thou cut down to the ground,

Helel, or Day Star, is a Canaanite god. Shahar is another Canaanite god

In his fallen state, Helal was known as Azazel, the earth-bound demon to whom the Israelites gave as a yearly sacrifice on the Day of Atonement a "scapegoat" that was sent into the wilderness for Azazel after another goat had been sacrificed before the mercy seat of Yahweh:

Leviticus 16:5,7-10
"[Aaron] shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering . . . and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for Yahweh, and offer it as a sin offering; but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before Yahweh to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel"

Isaiah 14:12-15
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn [i.e., Helal, son of the god Shahar]!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
`I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of El; I will sit on the Mount of Assembly on the heights of Zaphon [the sacred mountain of El where the Assembly of the Gods met in council].
But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit"

Mt. Saphon, also known as Mt. Casius, is located just north of Ugarit, a Canaanite city located in northern Palestine during the 13th and 14th centuries BCE about half a mile inland near the tip of Cyprus.

This site gives you information regarding the Ras Shamra Ugarit polytheistic religion from which the Jews copied from or were part of. The Old Testament contains evidence of a polytheistic past where references were kept as the guardians of the monotheistic tradition may have forgotten what they were as the Jews moved from polytheism to monotheism from the time of the Captivity in Babylon.

The names of Helel, or Helal, Azazel, Shahar and Mt. Zaphon, the site of Baal, in the Old Testament shows Judaism emerged from the Ugaritic polytheistic religion or copied the legends, prophecies and gods from the Ras Shamra Ugaritic religion.

Here is an example of the Bible where you can twist it to your liking. Bible thumpers have selected verses to interpret their prejudices for ages.
I like Christians but I have worries about the Bible Thumpers so below is for those Thumpers.

Reference: King James Version

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
a) I will ascend into heaven,
b) I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
c) I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 d)I will ascend above the heights of the clouds:
e)I will be like the most High.


COMPARISON:

OLD TESTAMENT
1) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
(Note: Lucifer is Latin for bright.)

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (How arrogant, naming himself after such a lustrous heavenly body!)

OLD TESTAMENT
2) Isaiah 14:13 I will ascend into heaven


NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 24:51
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
3) Isaiah 14:13
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

The stars of God are the Israelites. (See Numbers 24:17 "...there shall come a Star out of Jacob,...")

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said,
Look now towards heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him,
So shall thy seed be.

Deuteronomy 10:22
Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons, and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his the glory, ye also shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

OLD TESTAMENT
4) Isaiah 14:13
I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north.
[Note:
a) Mt. Ophel, just south of the Temple Mount, has been identified as Mt. Zion. Jesus as a child sat in the Temple.
b) Location of the Last Supper is just north of (Mt. Zion?)]

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 2:46
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Luke 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

5) Isaiah 14:14
I will be like the most High.

God says He is the first and the last in the following passages:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus says that he is the first and the last in the following passages:-

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and untoLaodicea.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

God's garments are sprinkled with blood in the following passage:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Jesus' garment is dipped in blood in the following passage:-

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
In Isaiah, new heavens and new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

NEW TESTAMENT
In Revelation, a new heaven and a new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.

OLD TESTAMENT
God is the bridegroom of His people in the following:-

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus is the bridegroom of his followers in the following:-

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the chilren of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and shall they fast.

Mark 2:19.
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20. But the days will come, while the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34.
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Revelation 19:7.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20:9.
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Isaiah 14:19
"But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,..."
Note: The image of Jesus on the cross confirms it for there is no gravesite of him.

Jesus fits the descriptions of Lucifer almost to a T.
So is Jesus God or Lucifer?
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 03:00 am
y'know talk, i might be interested above most things in how judaism originally came to be. in other words, i'd love to take the time to read everything you just posted. it might help. zoroaster in particular is fascinating stuff.

i'm not as certain what period of time a post that long is going to stay on this board, if they stay, then i'm posting this for nothing, but i think the links to that material would have been more useful all in all- if they're available.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 10:24 am
In my opinion, I believe, many Jews today believe there is only one Hollywood, one Las Vegas, one Miami Beach, and of course one "best" bagel store in anyone's neighborhood.

It's polyconsumerism on the macro level, and monoconsumerism on the micro level. Many Christians, I believe, have these same beliefs.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 12:35 pm
not making it up
i think the word "one" is ordinarily misused when the best word to use would be "oneness"

one means "there are many of these, but only this fraction would be suitable for our purposes." oneness means "there may be many of these, but they are part of a larger whole." funny how basically the same word can refer either to exclusivity or inclusivity?

but a bagel, oy, what a symbol!

i forget the hasidic reason why a jewish bagel would be better symbolically if it had a line through it. maybe because then it would represent ayin! no, that wasn't it.

then again, a bagel does have a line through it, but it goes through the other way.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 06:09 pm
tinygiraffe wrote:
but from the beginning judaism has been a religion that evolved and changed in this aspect and many others.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 06:29 pm
talk72000 wrote:

His royal symbol was the bull or bull-calf, he being called "Bull-El" in the Ugaritic myths (13th/12th centuries BCE), suggests to me that Yahweh-Elohim (called El in the Bible) WAS THE GOLDEN CALF.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 06:35 pm
hankarin wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
but from the beginning judaism has been a religion that evolved and changed in this aspect and many others.


Judaism today has a few branches beyond the Orthodox. Reform Jews have a whole different spin on the world. Quoting the bible is just so exasperating to anyone that believes a religion can grow, with or without prophets.

It's 2007 and next year it's 2008.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 08:19 pm
Foofie wrote:
hankarin wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
but from the beginning judaism has been a religion that evolved and changed in this aspect and many others.


Judaism today has a few branches beyond the Orthodox. Reform Jews have a whole different spin on the world. Quoting the bible is just so exasperating to anyone that believes a religion can grow, with or without prophets. It's 2007 and next year it's 2008.


People have been exasperated by Bible preachers at least since Noah's day. They got over it.

I henceforth will make it my aim not to exasperate anyone any more than anyone else might exasperate someone else on this forum.

"A religion can grow."

That has a very positive connotation but is perhaps more positive than 2007 has shown and that 2008 will prove to show. Religion today is like a storm tossed ship heading for the rocks, and the lighthouse isn't in sight.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 11:19 pm
i am glad- no, thrilled foofie, to see you imply (no?) that judaism can continue to evolve. from the point of view of the jews i enjoy speaking with the most (no group in mind, more like a particular quality of them) it can and must. (i'm not talking about herschel but i like him too)

none of this makes history any less important, on the contrary, reengaging in the history of judaism is key to renewal, and certainly important to understanding the religions that came out of judaism.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:00 am
Religion is man made. It is one mans will over another. Religion has no just consequence.

---------------

The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain
(Excerpt from Chapter 9)

"Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions are all based upon that large defect in your race -- the individual's distrust of his neighbor, and his desire, for safety's or comfort's sake, to stand well in his neighbor's eye. These institutions will always remain, and always flourish, and always oppress you, affront you, and degrade you, because you will always be and remain slaves of minorities. There was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/warPrayer.html
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 02:28 pm
Amigo wrote:
Religion is man made. It is one mans will over another. Religion has no just consequence.

---------------

The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain
(Excerpt from Chapter 9)

"Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions are all based upon that large defect in your race -- the individual's distrust of his neighbor, and his desire, for safety's or comfort's sake, to stand well in his neighbor's eye. These institutions will always remain, and always flourish, and always oppress you, affront you, and degrade you, because you will always be and remain slaves of minorities. There was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/warPrayer.html


Time will tell.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
  1. Forums
  2. » What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus
Copyright © 2023 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/01/2023 at 01:07:19