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Protestant saints

 
 
Equus
 
Reply Fri 27 Jul, 2007 07:12 am
To what extent are Protestant-recognized and Catholic-recognized saints the same? Obviously Protestants cannot recognize most of the saints created by the Catholic church in recent centuries. Have Protestants created any saints since the reformation, or do they only accept as saints those mentioned in the Bible? Is there a significant difference between saints recognized by different Protestant sects?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,001 • Replies: 18
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jul, 2007 07:23 am
Quote:
... ... ...
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
... ... ...


a) all (Catholic) Saint,

especially, since

b) every baptised Christian is a Saint.

That is because of ...

Colossians Chapter 1
Quote:
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



Interessently, the Catholic Church always has, had and has had the very same theological opinion about Saints as e.g. Luther and Melanchthon: ony folkloristic traditions saw (and still sometimes see) that from a different angle.

I don't know how that is seen in other churches:I'm referring here to the official opinion of the Evangelical Church of Germany (a union of roughly two dozen Protestant, Lutheran and Reformed churches).
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Equus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 10:30 am
Okay, point taken. But you know I'm talking about "Saint" with a capital S as used as a title. Nobody's going to refer to me by Saint Equus after I die. But both Catholics and Protestants refer to the Apostles as Saint Peter, Saint Andrew, Saint Paul, etc. But the Catholics have hundreds of Saints (many of the modern ones having founded Catholic missions and Catholic charities and Catholic orders), that clearly Protestants can't accept. Where is the boundary between Catholic and Protestant Saints?

To complicate the discussion: I understand the Russian Orthodox Church creates Saints as well, and a few years ago canonized the family of Tsar Nicholas II. Clearly neither the Catholics nor Protestants recognize that. What about other Orthodox Churches like Greek and Armenian?
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 10:35 am
Book mark
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 10:40 am
The Orthodox Churches like Greek and Armenian etc have different 'S'aints as well - those, who are accepted by the Catholic-Orthodox churches (= those united with the Roman Catholic church) are accepted by the latter as "real" Saints, too.

I know that the Evangelical Church of Germany (representing a bit more than 1/3 of the German population) has generally no difficulties to accept some newer Roman Catholic saints (a bit less than 1/3 of Germans are RC).
(At my nieces evangelical/protestant confirmation recently, they even named a couple of quite "fresh" Catholic saints in the service.)

(And there's even an Oecumenic Saints Encyclopedia (in German) nline :wink:
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 04:19 pm
Equus wrote:
Where is the boundary between Catholic and Protestant Saints?

Well, here's as good an answer as I could come up with. In general, those few Protestant denominations that recognize any saints (e.g. Lutherans, Episcopalians) only recognize the apostles and a few others as saints, whereas the Catholic church has literally thousands of saints and keeps adding to the roster.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
(And there's even an Oecumenic Saints Encyclopedia (in German) nline :wink:

Very interesting link, but it has a rather broad definition of "saint" ("Heilige"). Martin Luther and John Calvin, for instance, are listed as "saints," but Lutherans and Calvinists wouldn't recognize them as Protestant "saints."
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 07:14 pm
It is noteworthy that the attitude toward "saints" among the Calvinists of England, the Puritans, was such that they referred to one another as "Saints," and referred to their congregations as each being a "community of Saints." I rather suspect that references to saints was considered part and parcel of the alleged idolatrous nature of the Roman Catholic church in the view of many early Protestants. As for the Lutherans and the Anglicans, those boys and girls differ from one another and from the Catholics (they're all often described as the "ritualistic" sects) in about the same degree that a "house" sparrow differs from a "tree" sparrow.
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saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 06:22 am
Evangelical Church of Germany
Sorry but this is not a real correct translation of Evangelische Kirche as Evangelisch is more protestant and evangelical is more free church.

Regarding the saints the only saint who is recognized by both the Roman Catholic church and the protestant church in Germany is Saint Elisabeth.

Mary is not recognized or better said honoured in the protestant church in Germany as you will seldom see any form of statues or pictures of her in a protestant church. Nor is any day in her honour in the church year.
The Lutheran churches as a rule - world wide - have often pictures or statues of Mary in the church - some have days in her honour and some have special hymns in the name of Mary.

Lutheran Norway honour St. Olaf. Lutheran Sweden honour Heliga Birgitta - not to confuse with Saint Bridget from Ireland.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 08:13 am
saab wrote:
Evangelical Church of Germany
Sorry but this is not a real correct translation of Evangelische Kirche as Evangelisch is more protestant and evangelical is more free church.


Sorry, but they are called such in German. Since the Reformation.

saab wrote:
Regarding the saints the only saint who is recognized by both the Roman Catholic church and the protestant church in Germany is Saint Elisabeth.


No.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 09:51 am
Sorry, you are mistaken. At the time of the Reformation there was the usage "evangelical" or "evangelische" theology as an adjective, BUT the various territorial churches rather soon had the name of Evangelical-Lutheran or Evangelical-Reformed. After WWII there was an attempt, because the population had changed in areas due to refugees, for simplicity in everyday language to call all Protestant Churches "Evangelisch". But still today there are many territorial churches in German with the official title "Evangelical-Lutheran". When people come from these areas, and they are asked what confession they are, they automatically often say "evangelical Lutheran". Furthermore, since "Evangelical" is confusing in other countries where it means free church or even extreme Protestantism, many Germans call themselves Lutheran or Protestant when they are abroad. If you want a good religious identity in another country, call yourself "Lutheran"--even TIME magazine does this, by the way, when referring to the Protestants in Germany.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:01 am
saab wrote:
Evangelical Church of Germany
Sorry but this is not a real correct translation of Evangelische Kirche as Evangelisch is more protestant and evangelical is more free church.


Well, the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland seems to be okay with the translation Evangelical Church in Germany.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:15 am
As strange as it sounds EKD is not a church.
It is a type of head quarters for all the independent territoral churches in Germany. Like The National Council of Churches in USA.
EKD should really be called the Evang. Churches in Germany.
Eight territorial churches still have the official name of Evang.-Lutheran Church and one is call Evang. Reformed. Some of the territorial evangelische churches are NOT members of EKD and others are members of the Lutheran World Confederation.

Re: die Heilige Elisabeth.

In an article by Maria Wenk she says: die Heilige Elisabeth wird noch heute von Katholiken und Protestanten verehrt.

Please mention another saint who is honoured by the protestants.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:23 am
saab wrote:
As strange as it sounds EKD is not a church.
It is a type of head quarters for all the independent territoral churches in Germany. Like The National Council of Churches in USA.
EKD should really be called the Evang. Churches in Germany.
Eight territorial churches still have the official name of Evang.-Lutheran Church and one is call Evang. Reformed. Some of the territorial evangelische churches are NOT members of EKD and others are members of the Lutheran World Confederation.


Sure.

But your original point was that Evangelical Church was "not a real correct translation of Evangelische Kirche."

And I agree that in a different context (e.g. of churches in the United States), it would make sense to qualify what you mean by "evangelical." However, concerning churches in Germany, I think Evangelical Church is a real correct translation.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:59 am
It is a great pleasure for me to observe the Germans here quibbling with each other. :wink: Carry on !
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saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 12:03 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
It is a great pleasure for me to observe the Germans here quibbling with each other. :wink: Carry on !


Who are the Germans quibbling if I may ask?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 12:09 pm
Well, I'm not one, so I won't respond ! Laughing
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 01:03 pm
saab wrote:
Sorry, you are mistaken. At the time of the Reformation there was the usage "evangelical" or "evangelische" theology as an adjective, BUT the various territorial churches rather soon had the name of Evangelical-Lutheran or Evangelical-Reformed. After WWII there was an attempt, because the population had changed in areas due to refugees, for simplicity in everyday language to call all Protestant Churches "Evangelisch". But still today there are many territorial churches in German with the official title "Evangelical-Lutheran". When people come from these areas, and they are asked what confession they are, they automatically often say "evangelical Lutheran". Furthermore, since "Evangelical" is confusing in other countries where it means free church or even extreme Protestantism, many Germans call themselves Lutheran or Protestant when they are abroad. If you want a good religious identity in another country, call yourself "Lutheran"--even TIME magazine does this, by the way, when referring to the Protestants in Germany.


The official member churches of the Evangelische Kirche von Deutschland:

Evangelische Landeskirche Anhalts, Evangelische Landeskirche in Baden, Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche in Bayern, Evangelische Kirche Berlin-Brandenburg-schlesische Oberlausitz , Evangelisch-lutherische Landeskirche in Braunschweig, Bremische Evangelische Kirche, Evangelisch-lutherische Landeskirche Hannovers, Evangelische Kirche in Hessen und Nassau, Evangelische Kirche von Kurhessen-Waldeck, Lippische Landeskirche, Evangelisch-Lutherische Landeskirche Mecklenburgs, Nordelbische Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche, Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche in Oldenburg, Evangelische Kirche der Pfalz, Pommersche Evangelische Kirche, Evangelisch-reformierte Kirche,Evangelische Kirche im Rheinland, Evangelische Kirche der Kirchenprovinz Sachsen, Evangelisch-Lutherische Landeskirche Sachsens, Evangelisch-Lutherische Landeskirche Schaumburg-Lippe, Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche in Thüringen, Evangelische Kir
che von Westfalen, Evangelische Landeskirche in Württemberg



Okay, I agree that you might call those "Lutheran" mentionings there many.

About you historic view - I own the "Opera Genealogico Historiae de Westphalia & Saxonia" by Hamelmann (Lemgo, 1711), the "Histria Westfaliae" by Schatten (Paderborn, 1690) and "De Antiquis Westphaliae Colonis" all call them "evangelii". (Hamelmann is the earliest and most extensive history of the reformed [sic!] hstory of the evangelical church in Lippe - which is without any doubts a reformated church!!!


Your comment that the situation changed after WWII is correct - butfor the Catholic church as well.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 01:05 pm
saab wrote:

Who are the Germans quibbling if I may ask?


Old Europe and I - but neither he nor I am quibbling.

I'm just stating what I learned, studied, read and know by personal experience.

saab wrote:
As strange as it sounds EKD is not a church.
It is a type of head quarters for all the independent territoral churches in Germany. Like The National Council of Churches in USA.


From the EKD website:

The Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) is the institutional form chosen by a community of 23 Lutheran, Reformed and United regional churches.[...] The EKD has the following governing bodies, all organised and elected on democratic lines: the Synod, the Council and the Church Conference.

saab wrote:

Please mention another saint who is honoured by the protestants.



Some hundredsare mentioned here:

Quote:
Die Evangelische Kirche in Hessen und Nassau hat in ihrem liturgischen Kalender einzelnen Heiligen bestimmte Gedenktage zugeordnet. Sie sind im Evangelischen Gesangbuch unter Nr. 954 zu finden. Dazu gehören unter anderen der Tag der Apostel Petrus und Paulus und auch der Tag der Geburt Johannes des Täufers. Sogar der Gedenktag der Heiligen, der am 1. November, in der römisch-katholischen Kirche als „Allerheiligen" gefeiert wird, gehört zu diesen Tagen, die in einem evangelischen Gottesdienst begangen werden können.
Source
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 01:29 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
saab wrote:

Who are the Germans quibbling if I may ask?


Old Europe and I - but neither he nor I am quibbling.


Well, perhaps just a little. Saab too, however perhaps he is a Swede.
0 Replies
 
 

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