A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders.

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Looking at the ugly pictures coming out of Tibet, I ask myself a question. "How would I feel as a policeman or a soldier facing a protesting crowd of civilians? If I know in my heart that these crowds are innocent or even right, do I have to go and bash their heads in with my truncheon?
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As a policeman in my hometown, do I have to beat up my friends or relatives who are protesting some meeting of big business, slicing up the pie in far away countries?
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During the Nuremberg trial the excuse: " I was following orders" was not accepted. Surely many soldiers in Iraq must have followed bad orders because they were afraid of being punished. Sickening dilemma.
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A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders.
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The military oath taken at the time of induction reads:
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"I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God"
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The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
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By November of 2002, 315 law professors had signed a statement entitled "A US War Against Iraq Will Violate US and International Law and Set a Dangerous Precedent for Violence That Will Endanger the American People."
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http://www.counterpunch.org/mosqueda02272003.html

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military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.

The cut and pate above apply to USA military as well.

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Re: A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders.

noinipo wrote:

L
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ.

now what i'd like is a definition of lawful vs. unlawful order. also, the passage you quoted of itself merely requires obeying lawful orders; it does not require disobeying unlawful ones.

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Is your point that the military should disobey unlawful orders, or that police should?

And who gets to decide what unlawful is? What if one 'expert' says it's lawful, and another 'expert' says it's unlawful?

Then...what if you consider the law wrong?

And what if your boss honestly thinks it's lawful, while you only 'think' it's unlawful?

What if half the unit thinks it's lawful, the other half of the squad thinks it's unlawful? Do you argue in the middle of a warzone that it's wrong? Do you walk away, leaving your mates flanks unprotected, maybe leading to their deaths?

Some things of course, are clear cut unlawful.

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During WW2 I lived in Germany. Our next door neighbour in the apartment block had three sons. They were all around 6'5" and belonged to elite military units. The youngest one came home on furlough once and told his mother that he was unhappy.
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He told her that they had to do things that disturbed him a lot. Finally, as he was going back to his unit in Russia, he shot himself.
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Seems to be the only way out: after disobeying an order, they shoot you or you do it yourself. Wearing a uniform and swearing an oath puts you in a bad corner.
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btw, the invasion of Iraq was unlawful.

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In international terms, law is determined by power, economics, and politics and as a side issue - a convenient set of rules to settle minor international matters.

In relation to an invasion, the use of the term 'lawful' is for use by the Major powers when it suits the major powers, and for PR purposes by both the major and lesser powers.

Of course when democratic countries subscribe to such charters, the waters become murkier due to public opinion within said democratic countries.

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noinipo wrote:

Seems to be the only way out: after disobeying an order, they shoot you or you do it yourself. Wearing a uniform and swearing an oath puts you in a bad corner.
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btw, the invasion of Iraq was unlawful.

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noinipo wrote:

Seems to be the only way out: after disobeying an order, they shoot you or you do it yourself. Wearing a uniform and swearing an oath puts you in a bad corner.
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btw, the invasion of Iraq was unlawful.

reminds me of the one time NFL player Pat Tillman, who volunteered to fight in Afghanistan to be with his brother there, thought the war in Iraq was illegal, and was killed by friendly fire. (but i am NOT insinuating his death was anything but an accident.)

the invasion of Iraq was stupid & unnecessary, regardless of legality, IMO, and the campaign to round up public support for it was a disgraceful exercise in indoctrination.

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@vikorr,

Your thinking too much about the issue. Whether or not its unconstitutional or not is moreso the case. If its unconstitutional, its unlawful. There is a lot of grey area there, but in general you will not likely come across this problem. And for the other posters, he was quoting directly from the United States Code of Military Justice, so it doesn't directly apply to law enforcement

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Nor does it apply to Tibet, the starting point for this rant.

People subject to the UCMJ are not required to obey an unlawful order--and non-commissioned officers and warrant officers can only give lawful orders. But officers can give direct orders, and the only response that an inferior officer, non-commissioned officer or private soldier can make, other than simply obeying the order, is to protest, demand the order in writing--and then obey the order.

Which pretty well shoots the whole goofy argument right in the ass.

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@noinipo,

Opinion,
u do not understand what u r saying.

The law that u quoted only shows that a soldier has a duty to obay lawful orders.
Nothing that u quoted indicates any authority
for his disregarding unlawful orders, altho u falsely imply that it does.

David

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@noinipo,

noinipo wrote:

During WW2 I lived in Germany. Our next door neighbour in the apartment block had three sons. They were all around 6'5" and belonged to elite military units. The youngest one came home on furlough once and told his mother that he was unhappy.
.
He told her that they had to do things that disturbed him a lot. Finally, as he was going back to his unit in Russia, he shot himself.
.
Seems to be the only way out: after disobeying an order, they shoot you or you do it yourself. Wearing a uniform and swearing an oath puts you in a bad corner.
.
btw, the invasion of Iraq was unlawful.

O, Really ?
What law did the invasion violate, Opinion ??

David

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A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders.

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