Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 04:15 pm
I know, I know, probably this should go under spirituality and religion. But...
to me, the large picture is the politics of it.

Anyone read Jane Kramer's article, The Pope and Islam, in last week's New Yorker? I just finished it.

It's only available at the site in abstract right now, and I don't know how long that lasts. Here's the abstract link:

As the article goes on for many pages, the abstract is only a wisp of it.
link to abstract, The Pope and Islam, Jane Kramer


Well, my biases up front are - I've always gained wider knowledge, expanded viewpoint, from reading Kramer, over many years.
In this case, her first few pages put into words my own understanding of some roman catholic church history, in particular re recent popes. (I used to follow Kung and Ratzinger's theological arguments many years ago).

However, the article is dense with regard to different catholic points of view and different muslim points of view, emphases on the plurals of those, also views of either over time. And there is where I learned a lot of names and complexities I didn't know before.



link to abstract, The Pope and Islam, Jane Kramer


And yes, this all impacts on politics of the world.. as has been shown in action in various ways, evinced in the rage after the Regensburg speech of Pope Benedict.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 04:22 pm
I just finished it last night, thought it was very interesting, in a lot of ways. The "Ratzinger has been Pope longer than anyone realizes" comment, for example. (Basically, that Ratzinger heavily directed John Paul during the last years of his illness.) The Assissi I and Assissi II gatherings -- compare and contrast.

I didn't think much of John Paul at the time (I know he's actually John Paul II or something, sorry -- I mean the one before Ratzinger) but he seems to be a total sweetheart by comparison.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 04:25 pm
I'll get around to fixing that link.

I'm a non-Ratzinger fan myself, but Fbaezer has in the past had, if I remember correctly, some good things to say. I'd be interested in what he thinks of the article.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 04:27 pm
The Pope and Islam, by Jane Kramer

I gotta say the abstract does give a bit of a clue, good.
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dlowan
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 05:57 pm
Is there any way of accessing the full thing?


Is there going to be a longer article published?

It just natters on about accessing the archives underneath.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 10:36 pm
I think, those eight pages are rather informative ... for "A Letter from Europe".

And well, Ratzinger WAS known to be hardliner since he became a professor. (I've heard him once when he was teaching at M√ľnster university.)

I'd really thought he would have been more distanced to Islam than he is ... officially.


There had been a thread about his speech in Regensburg already (at least I think to remember).
What he said there, well, I think it was really a bit stupid not to expect that to get published outside the room.

And Karol Wojtyla certainly was as conservative as Ratzinger - in all perspectives.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 10:50 pm
I expect Kramer's article will be available shortly, or else just be quoted outright. (In the meantime, I've read at least two books of hers, and batches of articles... I suppose they are available. It was she who gave me any clue of the banlieus... long before they showed up in headlines.) Well, much else.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 10:55 pm
When writing from/about Europe, Kramer usually focuses either on those not in the headline or on those at the tope of power.

(She has published a lot in German as well.)
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 10:56 pm
Kramer's bio/bibliography
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 11:35 pm
Oh, Walter, thanks and dagnabbit.

Now I have to look at all of those.

At least three of her articles were formative for me.

Ok, Ok, will reread. (gads, whatta bunch of links.)

I'll cheerfully admit she's not perfect. Still, I'll listen.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 11:54 pm
Yes, there was a thread on that, Walter.

Ratzinger and Kung were hard at it ...... I remember the tension.

Well, I was a subscriber to National Catholic Reporter, mentioned in the article. (That's where I read all the theological pros and cons, or so I thought). I was avid-to-know at the time. Waves hand, yawning, now.
Guessing, '64, for the Kung/Ratzinger stuff?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:25 am
ossobuco wrote:
Guessing, '64, for the Kung/Ratzinger stuff?


1966 until 1969 it was.

(I've heard him 1968 at a scientific seminar week.)
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:23 am
It's interesting.....I don't know from papal politics so much...but I do recall reading an article that was saying that Ratzinger was, in fact, being far more "liberal" on a number of issues than had been expected from his apparent stances when he was the power behind the papal throne.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 06:15 am
Depends on who was expecting what.

Quite a few (including me) thought that Ratzinger was only chosen (by the Holy Spirit, that is :wink: ) because he wouldn't chnage much, neither to the more bad or less good.


And when the next pope will come (Pope Benedict isn't the youngest), cardinals might have changed or their opinions, or Catholics will be even more conservative or ...

It wasn't the time for a big change, the Holy Spirit thaught. :wink:
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 12:25 pm
OK, it's on the New Yorker site now, not just in abstract.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/02/070402fa_fact_kramer
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 12:33 pm
ossobuco wrote:
OK, it's on the New Yorker site now, not just in abstract.


Actually, your previous link gave (here) the same (full) report already.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 12:35 pm
At the time I posted that, Walter, it was only in abstract form, just a paragraph or two. I did double check that.
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Kara
 
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Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2007 08:47 pm
osso, I printed it out from your first link. Will read it tonight.

I think, as Walter said, that the pope was chosen as a holding pattern, as a link to the past for the few years he will reign, as a doctrinaire but learned and scholarly religioso, until the church figures out what to do about its crushing decline and looming irrelevancy.
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RexRed
 
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Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 07:30 am
What is this subject doing in politics? Are you seeking a spiritual solution for a political problem? Smile
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