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Fine-Tuning 15, British English/American English

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2004 04:29 am
McT -- I have here, right in front of me, an American dictionary ("Webster's New Riverside Dictionary") which strongly suggests, judging by the definitions, that the two words are more or less synonimous. However, I, too, have heard discussions of this on radio programs. It seems American linguists are as distressed by this trend as the British ones. Personally -- while I agree that language does change over time -- I, too, like the fine distinctions between words and try to be careful about my choice of precise words.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2004 05:10 am
Well thanks Andrew, I feel the same about the meanings and use of words.

The only American dictionary I have access to is Merriam-Webster Online, and the definition of jealous there does not suggest envious as a synonym.

So, it appears "the street" may be a bit ahead of the lexicographers. Which is what one would expect of course, Me, I'll go on being an old pedant! Happy to be quite old-fashioned.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2004 07:22 am
McTag wrote:
The only American dictionary I have access to is Merriam-Webster Online, and the definition of jealous there does not suggest envious as a synonym.



Quote:
Main Entry: jeal·ous
Pronunciation: jels
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English jelous, from Old French jalos, jalous, jelous, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin zelosus, from Late Latin zelus zeal + Latin -osus -ous -- more at ZEAL
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness <shall worship no other god, for the Lord ... is a jealous God -- Exod 34:14 (Revised Standard Version)> <jealous of the slightest interference in household management -- Havelock Ellis> b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness (as in love) : apprehensive of the loss of another's devotion <so jealous she wouldn't let him dance with anyone else> c : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage (as a possession or attainment) : ENVIOUS, RESENTFUL <jealous because her coat isn't as nice as yours>
2 : zealous in guarding (as a possession) : VIGILANT <his jealous love of privacy and independence -- J.W.Beach> : SOLICITOUS <students ... were like sons to him, he was jealous for their welfare -- Ellwood Hendrick>
3 : distrustfully watchful : apprehensive of harm or fraud : SUSPICIOUS <the jealous caution of New England -- Van Wyck Brooks>
synonym see ENVIOUS

source:
Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (2 Dec. 2004).

Quote:
Main Entry: en·vi·ous
Pronunciation: envs, -vis
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French envieus, envious, from Latin invidiosus, from invidia envy + -osis -ous -- more at ENVY
1 : characterized by, exhibiting, or reflecting envy : feeling or motivated by envy : maliciously covetous or resentful of the possessions or good fortune of another <tried to look disappointed and angry but ... only succeeded in looking envious -- Hervey Allen> <the sterile and envious principle of artificial equality -- Time> <examining the tire with envious appreciation -- M.M.Musselman>
2 archaic a : EMULOUS b : ENVIABLE <theirs was an envious gift, but lightly held -- Thomas Cole>
synonyms JEALOUS: envious is likely to suggest a grudging of another's possessions and accomplishments, a spiteful desiring of their loss, or, most frequently, a malicious or cankerous coveting of them <his successes were so repeated that no wonder the envious and the vanquished spoke sometimes with bitterness regarding them -- W.M.Thackeray> JEALOUS may suggest distrustful, suspicious, angry, or malcontent intolerance of the notion of anyone else's coming to possess what is viewed as belonging to or befitting oneself <France, jealous as it was of his greatness and covetous of his Gascon possessions, he could hold at bay -- J.R.Green> <I know that religion, science, and art are all jealous of each other because each of them claims, in a sense, to cover the whole field, that is, to interpret all experience from its own point of view -- W.R.Inge> It may be used without derogation to indicate cherishing and vigilantly guarding or maintaining <proud of their calling, conscious of their duty, and jealous of their honor -- John Galsworthy>

source: "envious." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (2 Dec. 2004).
0 Replies
 
Clary
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2004 07:37 am
Glad I got the difference! But of course, the meanings are merged now, in fact envious and envy are not often used in comparison to jealous and jealousy. The pertinent philosophical point is, I think, whether a meaning is being lost from the language - and whether this is impoverishing. Perhaps you could say that jealous in its original meaning is a valuable word/concept and it's a pity to lose it.

Disinterested is in the same camp - and I think a valuable meaning is being lost.

All the same, when writing dictionaries, one has to take account of the usage first. American Heritage Dictionary used to (maybe still does) quote a 'usage panel' - so would say 'unacceptable to 38% of usage panel' or some such. It's useful for foreigners to know this kind of thing.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2017 03:17 am
Reviving this very old thread with an opinion from The Guardian:
Quote:
Should the Americanisation (or Americanization) of English worry us?

From the first settlers to the New World, English speakers have absorbed myriad influences – modern anxieties about ‘corruption’ say a lot about our times

Monday 24 July 2017 10.00 BST
“That’s what this nation has been built on, proud men. Proud ******* warriors!” shouts Combo in one of the most well-known scenes from This Is England. What Combo would have thought of the recent report that the language of his beloved nation was becoming increasingly Americanised we can only imagine. But very few things have engendered as much debate as the language we speak – from Jonathan Swift’s concerns in 1712 that English would fall from use like Latin, and Samuel Johnson’s attempt in the mid-18th century to “preserve the purity” of the English language, to fresh claims that the “state of innocence” in which British English once existed has been “corrupted” by Americanisms. Perhaps we need to ask two questions: 1) What do modern anxieties about the English language say about us? 2) What does it mean to be English today?

[...]

So, what does it mean to be English? I put the question out to Twitter and my favourite suggestion was a line from Pink Floyd, “hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way”. Perhaps, in 2017, this is England.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2017 05:00 am
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2017 05:17 am
About six minutes into the vid Graham Norton discusses fannies with, an extremely slow on the uptake, Jackie Stallone.

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camlok
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2017 07:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Samuel Johnson’s attempt in the mid-18th century to “preserve the purity” of the English language,


Johnson knew it was futile. Why is this lost on so many?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2026 12:09 am
The British Used to Sound Like We Did [NYT, no paywall]
Quote:
If we traveled in time to America at its founding, we would be as thrown by how people sounded as by the absence of electricity, highways and bottled water. And realizing how the way we speak has changed since then gives us a clue to how Americans might speak in the future.

You might think that early Americans sounded like Anthony Hopkins and Helen Mirren, and that the American accent developed after independence. It was probably the other way around. Up until the early 1800s, you couldn’t tell whether a person was British or American from their accents. When naval officers tried to free sailors who had been shanghaied into service in the War of 1812, they said they couldn’t tell for sure who was American or British by the way they spoke.

The hallmark of the British accent — pronouncing words like “path” and “fast” as “pahth” and “fahst” or “fah” for “far.” — developed only at the end of the 18th century. English in the United States and Canada sound so much alike because their language started as British English in the 1700s. Australian English sounds much like today’s British English because by the time British people were sent there after the 1820s, what we know as a British accent had emerged.

Other things in early America would throw us as well. From writings in the early 19th century, we know that Southerners said “gyardin” for “garden” and “year” for “ear,” as Meriwether Lewis, of Lewis and Clark fame, rendered it in his journal. But we don’t find references to the Southern drawl that now defines the Southern speaking voice until after the Civil War.

Word usages have changed. In a transcript from an 1800 murder trial in New York City, a witness uses the word “sensible” to mean “sensitive,” as it still does in French. And this was not Elizabethan England 500 years ago, but the United States of America 226 years ago.

Even within some of our lifetimes, we can hear little differences in the way people speak. If you watch old television shows, you frequently hear people accenting phrases differently than we would. This is because names with two parts often start out with the accent on the second one, and over time, as the name becomes culturally well-established, the accent shifts to the first one. In a 1955 episode of the sitcom “Make Room for Daddy,” the characters pronounce “Little League” — founded 16 years earlier — as “little LEAGUE.” It’s more commonly spoken now as LITTLE league. In a 1964 episode of “The Dick Van Dyke Show,” a woman says “crossword PUZZLE” — because that was the way it would have been pronounced when crosswords were popularized in the 1920s, and the actress was born in 1896.

All of these sources are a good way to understand how changeable language is. It’s not just the slang or cool youth expressions I like to cover, but the very warp and woof of how we speak: vowels, how we accent words and what the words even mean. A language is like a sky full of clouds — the clouds are always moving and churning. If they didn’t, something would be wrong.

An accent changes today just as it did in England after 1800. In the English brought to St. Louis when it became part of the United States in 1804, “or” was pronounced as “ar” — “carn” for “corn,” or “farty” for “forty.” This has been on the retreat in St. Louis since the late 20th century. You could hear this in the old TV show, “The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis” when Dobie’s irascible father, played by Frank Faylen, born in St. Louis in 1905, said “What is this used far?” Listen carefully and you can hear Phyllis Smith of “The Office,” born in St. Louis in 1949, saying “narmally” for “normally.” Ellie Kemper, who was also on “The Office,” was born in 1980 and grew up in St. Louis and does not use that pronunciation in an episode of “The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt” in which she says “normal” as “normal” and “war” as “war,” not “wahr.”

All of this allows some informed guesses on what the American language will be like in the future. Plenty of words are teetering into new meanings, the way “sensible,” which once meant “sensitive,” now means “having good sense.” Usages that were once derided as misimpressions become so common that we come to accept them and admit that the horse is out of the barn. For Americans in 2076, the first meaning of “aesthetic” that comes to mind may well be “attractive,” the way many young people use it today. Any sense that “nonplussed” means “perplexed” will be forgotten in favor of the common impression today that it means “unimpressed.” And the most intuitive meaning of “swipe” will relate to computer screens rather than stealing or a movement of the hand.

In the same vein, I quite clearly recall a friend in 1977 excitedly telling me he had just seen a movie called “Star WARS.” The same process that got us to now saying “STAR Wars” will almost surely have us saying, for “A.I. slop,” not “ay-eye SLOP” but “ay-EYE slop.” Just wait for it.
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