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When science meets media hype ...

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 11:16 pm
Re: The conceit of the somewhat wise
real life wrote:
Well, I think people tend to patronize sites that they trust and respect and avoid those that they don't.


People also patronize things that entertain them, it all depends on what they want. Some people buy the tabloids because they believe them, and I'm not proposing that we prevent them. Other people buy tabloids for entertainment, and I'm not proposing that we prevent that either.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to control what people see or read at all. All the information sources will still be out there and people are free to take what they want.

But for people who want certain information, having that information evaluated by experts can be very valuable. Medical information for example. The Internet is flooded with information which appears to be scientifically backed medical advice, and yet it's not. People who are researching asthma treatments for their kids might like to have information which is rated against western medical standards, eastern medical standards and holistic medical standards.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 11:43 pm
Re: The conceit of the somewhat wise
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Well, I think people tend to patronize sites that they trust and respect and avoid those that they don't.


People also patronize things that entertain them, it all depends on what they want. Some people buy the tabloids because they believe them, and I'm not proposing that we prevent them. Other people buy tabloids for entertainment, and I'm not proposing that we prevent that either.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to control what people see or read at all. All the information sources will still be out there and people are free to take what they want.

But for people who want certain information, having that information evaluated by experts can be very valuable. Medical information for example. The Internet is flooded with information which appears to be scientifically backed medical advice, and yet it's not. People who are researching asthma treatments for their kids might like to have information which is rated against western medical standards, eastern medical standards and holistic medical standards.


Well, ros, go make your millions, my friend.

I'll say I knew you when. Cool
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:10 am
real life wrote:
Things do tend to lose meaning when repetitive hyperbole is invoked, as in your post, Wolf.

Reading with a skeptical eye and discerning the difference between data and opinion is hardly the equivalent of brain surgery, is it?


Yes, except hm... we weren't talking about opinion, were we? We were talking about articles that are supposed to be reporting facts, but misreported said facts.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:24 am
People's Trust is a Poor Metric
Quote:
Take a look at cable news. The ratings indicate which ones people consider trustworthy, reliable and informative......and which ones they don't.

Most TV news and newspapers claim to do the type of vetting you describe now.

But people vote with their patronage, or lack thereof.


Saying that people select their news outlets based on which ones they consider trustworthy and that patronage is a sign of quality is clearly refuted by looking at our media landscape today. Talk radio clearly plays fast and loose with the truth. They are selling entertainment and are willing to present one sided or even false information with hyperbole for effect. Would you consider the "Daily Show" as a good source of news information? It's got good ratings. Fox News, Huffington Post, good ratings, not much vetting. In fact, good vetting is probably a reason outlets lose readership. Everyone wants to hear how Teflon is going to kill us, why next year's hurricane season is going to be worse than any in the last 100 years, how predators are patroling our neighborhoods looking for children. A news outlet that ignores all those bogus stories and focuses on covering the State of the Union address or digging into allegations of local corruption is going to see their readership decline. They just aren't entertaining enough.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:46 am
Re: The conceit of the somewhat wise
real life wrote:
Well, ros, go make your millions, my friend.

I'll say I knew you when. Cool


I'm already 'making my millions', I'm just not doing it on the Internet. Maybe when I'm bored with my current business I'll start another Smile
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:51 am
Re: People's Trust is a Poor Metric
engineer wrote:
Saying that people select their news outlets based on which ones they consider trustworthy and that patronage is a sign of quality is clearly refuted by looking at our media landscape today. Talk radio clearly plays fast and loose with the truth. They are selling entertainment and are willing to present one sided or even false information with hyperbole for effect. Would you consider the "Daily Show" as a good source of news information? It's got good ratings. Fox News, Huffington Post, good ratings, not much vetting. In fact, good vetting is probably a reason outlets lose readership. Everyone wants to hear how Teflon is going to kill us, why next year's hurricane season is going to be worse than any in the last 100 years, how predators are patroling our neighborhoods looking for children. A news outlet that ignores all those bogus stories and focuses on covering the State of the Union address or digging into allegations of local corruption is going to see their readership decline. They just aren't entertaining enough.


I think this is exactly why true information sources will shift to the Internet and TV and Radio will be left for pure entertainment.

People who really want to understand something actively seek information about it, they don't just passively absorb what happens to come on TV.

Ultimately, I think TV and Internet will be almost indistinguishable as far as their transmission carrier is concerned (everything will eventually use IP). Then information will naturally begin to stratify into different 'qualities" (entertainment versue research value) as people begin to use it selectively.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 02:59 pm
Re: People's Trust is a Poor Metric
engineer wrote:
Quote:
Take a look at cable news. The ratings indicate which ones people consider trustworthy, reliable and informative......and which ones they don't.

Most TV news and newspapers claim to do the type of vetting you describe now.

But people vote with their patronage, or lack thereof.


Saying that people select their news outlets based on which ones they consider trustworthy and that patronage is a sign of quality is clearly refuted by looking at our media landscape today. Talk radio clearly plays fast and loose with the truth. They are selling entertainment and are willing to present one sided or even false information with hyperbole for effect. Would you consider the "Daily Show" as a good source of news information? It's got good ratings. Fox News, Huffington Post, good ratings, not much vetting. In fact, good vetting is probably a reason outlets lose readership. Everyone wants to hear how Teflon is going to kill us, why next year's hurricane season is going to be worse than any in the last 100 years, how predators are patroling our neighborhoods looking for children. A news outlet that ignores all those bogus stories and focuses on covering the State of the Union address or digging into allegations of local corruption is going to see their readership decline. They just aren't entertaining enough.


Compare apples with apples.

Compare the entertainers with the entertainers, and the news shows with the news shows.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 03:02 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
real life wrote:
Things do tend to lose meaning when repetitive hyperbole is invoked, as in your post, Wolf.

Reading with a skeptical eye and discerning the difference between data and opinion is hardly the equivalent of brain surgery, is it?


Yes, except hm... we weren't talking about opinion, were we? We were talking about articles that are supposed to be reporting facts, but misreported said facts.


Yes, we were talking about the ability of ordinary citizens to read something and understand whether it presents data or opinion, and whether it takes a 'professional vetter' to rate information for us because we're too stupid. It ain't rocket surgery, Wolf. Laughing
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:10 pm
I think an excellent example of what rosborne is proposing is embodied in the Chicago based Morningstar, a financial analyzing entity that gathers information about publicly listed companies and mutual funds, distills it and produces a final product that helps investors make cold hard decisions on where they may most efficiently invest their capital. Although their home web site is free, the really useful info must be bought via a subscription. The price of $135/year is a bargain.

Again, like rosborne's Wall St. Journal example, the data naturally lends itself to objective investigation, analyzing, and final recommendation. However, even though Morningstar tries to remove all subjectivity, they themselves warn the user that some of the numbers plugged into the formula that, say, calculates present value or cash flow discount models, are educated guesstimates. So even here we see some subjectivity but at least we are told about it by those offering final decisions.

With the above example we see a concentrated and determined effort to remove subjectivity and rightly so. It is more important not to invest because one is unsure whether to invest because of sketchy info and then see that stock take off than it is to jump in with both feet and lose your money when the "hot" stock later goes south. In the former case any loss is only in bragging rights in the latter a real monetary loss results.

The real challenge to rosborne's value added service, to which he readily admits, is evaluating those that do the valuations. Morningstar and WSJ subscribers have a natural benchmark and algorithm analyzing instrument--the bottom line. However, what metrics do we use in philosophy, psychology, ethics, and morality? Here personal investigation into a subject is paramount, individual views required and further discussion with others ongoing.

JM
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 09:18 pm
Nice post James. Good examples. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Feb, 2007 10:21 am
Re: People's Trust is a Poor Metric
real life wrote:


Compare apples with apples.

Compare the entertainers with the entertainers, and the news shows with the news shows.


That line is getting pretty blurry. Fox News is an example where they mix entertainers and news. The Daily Show is clearly entertainment, but actually has a fair amount of news value to it.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Feb, 2007 09:52 pm
Re: People's Trust is a Poor Metric
engineer wrote:
real life wrote:


Compare apples with apples.

Compare the entertainers with the entertainers, and the news shows with the news shows.


That line is getting pretty blurry. Fox News is an example where they mix entertainers and news. The Daily Show is clearly entertainment, but actually has a fair amount of news value to it.


Well, in a strict sense you are right, of course.

Unfortunately, there are almost no pure news outlets, unfortunately.

Especially TV news, local to a great degree, and national to a lesser degree, seem to feel the need to be cutesy celebrities and entertainers.

At least this is the case in the USA. There is a local TV channel here which gives us BBC news which seems to stick much closer to it's stated mission of providing news.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 11:31 pm
Speaking of science and the news, here's a view you don't hear much (if the media can help it):

from http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Quote:
Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide
Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?
By Timothy Ball

Monday, February 5, 2007

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.


What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wildenerness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at [email protected]





This noted climatologist reminds us of a time, not too many years ago, when schools were teaching kids that global cooling was a FACT. Anyone who questioned the conventional wisdom was simply WRONG.

The news media looks for the squeaky wheel and these days the money is going to the global warming crowd, so they are making the most noise.

You also won't hear much from the media about the global warming that also appears to be occurring on at least half of the other planets in our solar system.

No humans there to cause it though, or be affected by it. Hmmmmmmmm. Not such a good news story.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 05:26 am
It sure takes Mr Ball a long time to assert that human activity has no effect of global warming.

Are there any statistics for the tonnage of fossil fuels converted into heat and emissions since 1900 globally?

Was the ozone layer affected by flurocarbons or not?
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Feb, 2007 08:54 am
Spendius,

I am not aware of any of the statistics you request.
Nor am I aware of how much has settled out of the atmosphere to be recycled naturally.

But I do ask where do you think that the carbon which is now locked up in our coal deposits, lime deposits, oil reservoirs, coral reefs, and plants was before they were formed.

I suspect that the temperature cycle is just another cycle of nature, no harder to understand than the well known rabbit-fox-rabies cycle of temperate climates.

Basically there probably is not enough carbon existing to make the world much warmer than it was when the warm sea covered much of what is now North America. The dinosaurs were pretty happy with it for millions of years.

So what caused the Ice Ages? Lack of carbon, perhaps? Where did it go?

If you don't understand cycles then I am sure that someone would be glad to explain them and how they work.

Flurocarbons are purely artificial and there is probably no mechanism in place to deal with them. There is a similar objection to oleomargerine and other artificial fats and sweeteners.
Just for grins why don't you see if there is any correlation between the consumption of hydrogenated vegetable oils and heart and vascular disease. Bet you'll be surprised Exclamation
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Feb, 2007 08:41 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Your view seems to be an elitist position:

that only a select few are qualified to judge what information is valuable and what is not, and 'what it all means'.


Your view seems to expect that I approach things from an elitist position, when I have said nothing of the sort. Why do you make such an assumption?

All I said was that information should be classified and vetted against some known foundation, science being one (but many classifications could be used).

real life wrote:
Are you afraid that people will come to their own conclusions (which may differ from yours)?


I offer to clarify information based on some known standards, and you read it as trying to prevent people from coming to their own conclusions? Get a grip RL, your paranoia is showing.


...reminds me of something I once read on a MENSA faq...

Q. How do you respond to claims that you are elitist?

A. We are.
0 Replies
 
 

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