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Question: Evolution Releated.

 
 
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2007 06:12 pm
Could someone explain to me evolution in view of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?

((This is from the Wikipedia:

The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy. In simple terms, it is an expression of the fact that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and density tend to even out in a physical system which is isolated from the outside world. Entropy is a measure of how far along this evening-out process has progressed.))

Does this not show that instead of Evolution of species, that we would actually see DEVOLUTION of all species?

((This too is from the Wikepedia:

The second law of thermodynamics has been proven mathematically for thermodynamic systems, where entropy is defined in terms of heat divided by the absolute temperature. The second law is often applied to other situations, such as the complexity of life, or orderliness.[4] Some, however, object to this application, on possibly philosophical or theological grounds, reasoning that thermodynamics does not apply to the process of life. In sciences such as biology and biochemistry, however, the application of thermodynamics is well-established, e.g. biological thermodynamics. The general viewpoint on this subject is summarized well by biological thermodynamicist Donald Haynie, where as he states: "Any theory claiming to describe how organisms originate and continue to exist by natural causes must be compatible with the first and second laws of thermodynamics.))

So if entropy is a proven fact in biology, then that means that Evolution is totally IMPOSSIBLE and IMPROBABLE.

So then, please explain to me how its possible for evolution to even happen in view of this law.

IMO it's not.
BUT I could be wrong, and if so please explain to me how I am wrong.
Thank you.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 02:58 am
HERE YA GO
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 06:17 am
The law states only that total entropy for the entire universe increases. There can certainly be local decreases in entropy.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:26 am
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
Scott777ab wrote:
Could someone explain to me evolution in view of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?


The SLT does not preclude the possibility of evolution because localized environments can and do receive energy from external sources. The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.

For a more detailed explanation, see the link Timber provided.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 08:06 pm
Scott,

You will get farther if you don't use evidence unless you understand it and know where it came from.

Ok, so you've read an abstract definition of a scientific law, and if you interpret the words in a particular way then you can use it to apparently form a contradiction to evolution, even though the law in now way contradicts evolution.

Learn to separate the words that are used to describe something, from the intended meaning of those words. Until you understand the meaning of the law, you cannot use it to prove or disprove anything.

Go figure out where that law came from. Who found out about it, why we believe it, etc. Then you'll see...
0 Replies
 
Scott777ab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:33 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Scott,

You will get farther if you don't use evidence unless you understand it and know where it came from.

Ok, so you've read an abstract definition of a scientific law, and if you interpret the words in a particular way then you can use it to apparently form a contradiction to evolution, even though the law in now way contradicts evolution.

Learn to separate the words that are used to describe something, from the intended meaning of those words. Until you understand the meaning of the law, you cannot use it to prove or disprove anything.

Go figure out where that law came from. Who found out about it, why we believe it, etc. Then you'll see...


Blah blah blah ..... YOu have no idea why asked the question. Would it not be better to ask, " why I asked this question? "

The reason is because I saw this book on creation that mentioned it.
So I came here to get a better understand of that Law.

Now timber did his job.
But you're just being a butt.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:30 pm
Scott777ab wrote:
Blah blah blah ..... YOu have no idea why asked the question. Would it not be better to ask, " why I asked this question? "

The reason is because I saw this book on creation that mentioned it.
So I came here to get a better understand of that Law.

Now timber did his job.
But you're just being a butt.


Nobody cares why you asked the question.

From the way you posed the question, it was obvious that you did not know what entropy was, and all you knew of it was what you had read in that unscientific biased creationist book...and yet you were thinking about believing it.

I merely suggested that you look it up for yourself and try to make a judgement using your own brain before you ask someone else to give you the answer.

What kind of idiot believes an argument without understanding the evidence used in the argument? Obviously, the same kind of idiot who considers it OUR DUTY to spoon-feed you all the answers when you are too lazy to put the food in front of you into your own mouth.

Say ahhhh, here comes spaghettio...
0 Replies
 
Scott777ab
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 09:46 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
Blah blah blah ..... YOu have no idea why asked the question. Would it not be better to ask, " why I asked this question? "

The reason is because I saw this book on creation that mentioned it.
So I came here to get a better understand of that Law.

Now timber did his job.
But you're just being a butt.


Nobody cares why you asked the question.

From the way you posed the question, it was obvious that you did not know what entropy was, and all you knew of it was what you had read in that unscientific biased creationist book...and yet you were thinking about believing it.

I merely suggested that you look it up for yourself and try to make a judgement using your own brain before you ask someone else to give you the answer.

What kind of idiot believes an argument without understanding the evidence used in the argument? Obviously, the same kind of idiot who considers it OUR DUTY to spoon-feed you all the answers when you are too lazy to put the food in front of you into your own mouth.

Say ahhhh, here comes spaghettio...


I laugh at you again.
If I believed it do you even think I would care to come here and get any one's opinion?

EDIT : If you don't want to help someone who comes here trying to understand something better then just keep your mouth shut please.

You just make yourself sound like an arrogant snob. If you want to keep your KNOWLEDGE so secret to yourself then by all means do so, but don't expect any one to take you seriously after you blast them when they come to these forums asking and looking for answers.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 11:21 pm
Scott777ab wrote:
Could someone explain to me evolution in view of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?

Evolution occurs in strict accordance with the 2nd law since every chemical/physical process involved in DNA replication, growth, and survival results in a net increase of entropy, usually in the form of waste heat.

Quote:
Does this not show that instead of Evolution of species, that we would actually see DEVOLUTION of all species?

No. How did you get from equilibrium of temperature, pressure and density to "devolution" of species? And where do you think that these species came from in the first place? Did a magical entity poof them into existence, perhaps? If so, wouldn't that in itself be a violation of the second law?

Quote:
So if entropy is a proven fact in biology, then that means that Evolution is totally IMPOSSIBLE and IMPROBABLE.

It is a fact that entropy increases (or remains the same) in accordance with the second law for all processes. How does that fact make evolution either impossible or improbable?

The complexity of a DNA molecule may increase when extra copies are made of one or more chromosomes, functional genes or "junk" DNA, which may then be the subject of further mutations such as SNPs (a single letter alteration in a codon can change the amino acid it selects), deletions/insertions, and the usual genetic shuffling. None of these violate the 2nd law since each chemical reaction that occurs during the process actually increases entropy.

Entropy is not what you probably think it is from reading creationist literature. It is "a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system's disorder, that is a property of the system's state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system;" It is used to measure such things as the waste heat of an engine and irreversible chemical processes. It simply does not apply to the "complexity" of DNA because such complexity is not a function of temperature or state.

Natural selection determines which individuals survive and propagate the mutations to their DNA. The losers may succumb to genetic defects, starvation, predation, or fail to obtain a mate. How do any of these things violate the second law?

Did you read the brief link on biological thermodynamics:

Wikipedia wrote:
Living cells and organisms must perform work to stay alive, to grow, and to reproduce themselves. The ability to harness energy from a variety of metabolic pathways so to channel it into biological work is a fundamental property of all living organisms. Thermodynamically, the amount of energy capable of doing work during a chemical reaction is measured quantitatively by the change in the Gibbs free energy.

Quote:
So then, please explain to me how its possible for evolution to even happen in view of this law.

IMO it's not.
BUT I could be wrong, and if so please explain to me how I am wrong.

It is possible for evolution to happen because it does not violate any laws of thermodynamics or anything else.

If you still do not understand why, please check your sources to see if they explain exactly how "evolution" or "complexity" would cause or require a decrease in entropy. If they don't, their assertion that "evolution is impossible" is based on religious dogma rather than science. IMO.
0 Replies
 
Scott777ab
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jan, 2007 11:29 am
Thank you terry for your explanation.
I will read the whole thing when I get a chance.
Just wanted to say thanks.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 11:31 pm
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
rosborne979 wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
Could someone explain to me evolution in view of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?


The SLT does not preclude the possibility of evolution because localized environments can and do receive energy from external sources. The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.

For a more detailed explanation, see the link Timber provided.


So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?

This clearly isn't the case. (Think bonfires, explosions, etc)

Or is this another case of selectively applying your interpretation, i.e. 'Adding energy to a local system allows that system to overcome entropy except when it doesn't.'

Would simply exposing myself to the sun as often as possible cause me to overcome entropy?

Not likely. An increase in entropy is the more likely outcome, isn't it?

The energy must be harnessed, channeled and regulated in some way and that requires information.

(It used to be your position that the 2nd Law didn't apply at all, so I guess this is progress, at least.)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 11:43 pm
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
Could someone explain to me evolution in view of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?


The SLT does not preclude the possibility of evolution because localized environments can and do receive energy from external sources. The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.

For a more detailed explanation, see the link Timber provided.


So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?

This clearly isn't the case. (Think bonfires, explosions, etc)

Straw man; no such position as you allege is express or implied.

Quote:
Or is this another case of selectively applying your interpretation, i.e. 'Adding energy to a local system allows that system to overcome entropy except when it doesn't.'

Straw man; no such position as you allege is express or implied.

Quote:
Would simply exposing myself to the sun as often as possible cause me to overcome entropy?

Not likely. An increase in entropy is the more likely outcome, isn't it?

Non sequitur, argumentum incredulum, and argumentum ad absurdam; red herring.

Quote:
The energy must be harnessed, channeled and regulated in some way and that requires information.

Nonsense. Chaos, physics, and chemistry as we observe and understand them serve perfectly well to provide highly plausible, empirically based explanation for the "order" of the universe we observe and experience as we observe and experience that universe.

Quote:
(It used to be your position that the 2nd Law didn't apply at all, so I guess this is progress, at least.)

Straw man via blatant falsehood; never has ros made any such claim as you allege. One must wonder, rl - are you incapable of making a legitimate point, or do you simply prefer not to do so?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 09:55 am
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
real life wrote:
So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?


No.

real life wrote:
(It used to be your position that the 2nd Law didn't apply at all, so I guess this is progress, at least.)


That was never my position. It was only your misinterpretation (or intentional misrepresentation) of my position.

You have a habit of misquoting, misrepresenting and misinterpreting virtually everything you read, whether it's something I've said (we can use the last sequence of posts as examples), or some known law of physics (for example your misunderstanding of SLT).

Don't you have any new tricks? Timber must be getting tired of writing "straw man" after all your posts.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 10:23 pm
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?


No.



All right then.

You stated:

rosborne979 wrote:
The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.


So to clarify:

.... is it your position that EVERY time sufficient[/u][/i] energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?

If not, it is clear that you are indeed selectively applying this argument, i.e. 'Adding sufficient[/u][/i] energy to a local system allows that system to overcome entropy except when it doesn't.'

rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
(It used to be your position that the 2nd Law didn't apply at all, so I guess this is progress, at least.)


That was never my position. It was only your misinterpretation (or intentional misrepresentation) of my position.

You have a habit of misquoting, misrepresenting and misinterpreting virtually everything you read, whether it's something I've said (we can use the last sequence of posts as examples), or some known law of physics (for example your misunderstanding of SLT).

Don't you have any new tricks? Timber must be getting tired of writing "straw man" after all your posts.




Really?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2170392.html&highlight=closed+systems#2170392

rosborne979 wrote:
HOWEVER, as I'm sure we've stated before, the laws of Thermodynamics relate to theoretically perfect systems, not specific real world systems.


I think your tacit admission that the 2nd Law does indeed apply to real world systems IS a change in your position. Unless you want to shift course again and now claim that it doesn't.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 10:45 pm
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?


No.



All right then.

You stated:

rosborne979 wrote:
The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.


So to clarify:


Why do you keep wanting to re-state what I said. It's fine just the way it is.

real life wrote:

Really?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2170392.html&highlight=closed+systems#2170392

rosborne979 wrote:
HOWEVER, as I'm sure we've stated before, the laws of Thermodynamics relate to theoretically perfect systems, not specific real world systems.


I think your tacit admission that the 2nd Law does indeed apply to real world systems IS a change in your position.


The SLT is in effect everywhere, even though perfectly ideal conditions do not exist. It's perfectly normal for laws of physics to be defined under the assumption of ideal theoretical conditions, even if those conditions don't exist in nature.

You are applying logic incorrectly and using your incorrect assumptions to build windmills and expecting me to tilt at them. Those are called Straw Men. Just stop it. It's a tedious waste of time.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 11:17 pm
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
So is it your position that EVERY time energy (alone) is added to a (local) system that entropy decreases?


No.



All right then.

You stated:

rosborne979 wrote:
The Earth receives energy from the Sun, and that's all it needs to overcome entropy at a local level.


So to clarify:


Why do you keep wanting to re-state what I said. It's fine just the way it is.


If it's just fine, why can't you answer the question?

You want to claim that evolution of living organisms doesn't violate the 2nd Law because energy alone can overcome entropy.

Pick any organism and give one example of energy alone, (i.e. with no information such as that in DNA being used to harness and regulate the influx of energy), being sufficient to overcome entropy.

You want to pretend that energy alone was sufficient to cause dead chemicals to organize themselves into extraordinarily complex living organisms with NO evidence to show that this can be or ever has been done, and the 2nd Law stating that it can't be done.

rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:

Really?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2170392.html&highlight=closed+systems#2170392

rosborne979 wrote:
HOWEVER, as I'm sure we've stated before, the laws of Thermodynamics relate to theoretically perfect systems, not specific real world systems.


I think your tacit admission that the 2nd Law does indeed apply to real world systems IS a change in your position.


The SLT is in effect everywhere, even though perfectly ideal conditions do not exist. It's perfectly normal for laws of physics to be defined under the assumption of ideal theoretical conditions, even if those conditions don't exist in nature.

You are applying logic incorrectly and using your incorrect assumptions to build windmills and expecting me to tilt at them. Those are called Straw Men. Just stop it. It's a tedious waste of time.


It is clear that you previously argued that the 2nd Law did not apply to real world systems, but only to 'closed' systems that didn't exist in the real world.

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2167845.html&highlight=closed+systems#2167845
rosborne979 wrote:
That's not accurate. We don't know what caused it, and it certainly didn't violate any law of thermodynamics given that those laws only apply to closed systems "inside" our Universe



from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2170392.html&highlight=closed+systems#2170392

rosborne979 wrote:
Perfectly closed systems can't be observed because observing them implies interaction with the internal elements of the system. Heisenberg and all that. There are no naturally occuring "perfectly" closed systems if we include quantum interactions.

HOWEVER, as I'm sure we've stated before, the laws of Thermodynamics relate to theoretically perfect systems, not specific real world systems.



Now you've changed your mind, but don't want to admit that you've changed it. You want to pretend that this has always been your position. Not gonna work.

I'm glad you've finally come round. Just don't try to rewrite history.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 01:48 am
Bullshit, rl; ros is simply pointing out to you that the 2nd law doesn't work the way you claim it does - its you who are in error, and its you who looks more and more ridiculous the more straw you use to press the issue.

At root of the straw you keep dragging up is that the 2nd Law plain and simply has nothing to do with the nonsense you spout - it just doesn't work that way, and this has been brought to your attrention many times. All you're doing is flouting your ignorance, demonstrating tediously that you know not whereof you speak.

Apparently, as you persist in your specious, absurd, uninformed, crackpot, pseudoscience, 2nd Law ID-iotic nonsense, you ignored the following the last time excerpts from and a link to it were handed to you. More for the convenience and edification of those honestly confused about the issue than in expectation of bringing you to understanding (I harbor no expectation mere fact, logic, honesty, valid science, and sound theology might dent the walls of the fortress of ID-iocy behind which you cower), here it is in its entirety:

Quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics in the Context of the Christian Faith

Allan H. Harvey
[email protected]

Introduction
This essay was written in response to questions that came up on the Science and Christianity mailing list touching on issues of entropy and/or the second law of thermodynamics. I found myself writing the same things repeatedly to straighten out various misconceptions. So, I have written something between a personal essay and a FAQ on the topic. Since this is written from my personal viewpoint, I will start by stating my background and personal convictions which cannot help but influence what I write.

I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering (UC-Berkeley, 1988), specializing in "Molecular Thermodynamics," which combines classical and statistical thermodynamics to describe the thermophysical properties of fluids. I then did two years of postdoctoral work, more or less in Chemical Physics, followed by four years in private industry. I am now with the Physical and Chemical Properties Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder, Colorado. [Nothing I say here should be construed as representing NIST or the US Government.] I do not consider myself a specialist specifically in the second law, but my overall expertise in thermodynamics is sufficient to shed light on the relevant issues.

I am an evangelical Christian. I believe the Bible to be entirely trustworthy in conveying God's messages. Where people get into trouble is when, for example, they take the message of Genesis 1 (that God created everything, including us) and try to read it as something it is not (i.e., a science text). I get annoyed at the silly arguments of "creation science," but what is more annoying is when non-Christians see those arguments and get the false impression that such issues (rather than Christ) are what Christianity is all about. I do believe that God created everything, but how and when and to what extent that involved his sovereignty over "natural" processes are secondary questions that should not divide the church.

Finally, I should add that God has given me a passion for truth. Truth in all things, since all truth is God's truth. I therefore welcome correction or constructive criticism on this document.

What are the Laws of Thermodynamics?
First, we need a few definitions. In thermodynamics, we must refer to a clearly defined system. Textbooks commonly consider the system to be the contents of a box-like container. But we could also define it to be a specific cubic meter of the atmosphere above Phoenix, or the Earth (provided we define the boundary precisely), or my left kidney. Everything in the universe that is not a part of the system is the surroundings. Systems are divided into three categories: an isolated system can exchange neither matter nor energy with its surroundings, a closed system can exchange energy but not matter, and an open system can exchange both energy and matter. The Earth, for example, is an open system, but might be considered closed if one neglected meteors, space probes, etc. It is not an isolated system because, among other things, it receives radiant energy from the Sun. [NOTE: this categorization is not universally used; in particular it is not uncommon to hear an isolated system as defined above described as "closed."]

The first law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of conservation of energy, states that the total energy of any system remains the same, except to the extent it exchanges energy with its surroundings. This exchange can be in the form of heat transfer (perhaps by placing a hot body in thermal contact with the system) or work (perhaps by compressing the system via a piston). This gets modified a little for matter/energy conversion (important if the system is the Sun), but it is basically the simple idea that energy is never created or destroyed.

The second law is trickier. There are many statements of it; perhaps the simplest is that it is impossible for there to exist any process whose only effect is to transfer energy from a system at a low temperature to one at a higher temperature. In other words, heat flows downhill. The 2nd law is also formulated in terms of entropy, a well-defined quantity in terms of heat flows and temperature. Another statement of the 2nd law is that, for any isolated system, the entropy remains the same during any reversible process and increases during any irreversible process. The 2nd law also places bounds on the entropy change in a non-isolated system in relation to the temperatures of the system and the surroundings and the amount of energy leaving or entering it, but it is important to note that a system can experience a decrease in entropy if it is exchanging energy with its surroundings. The 2nd law is ultimately a statement about heat flows, work, and temperature, and also about the direction of time. It states that, as time goes forward, the overall effect is for energy to dissipate from hot things to cold things.

The third law concerns changes in entropy as the temperature approaches absolute zero, and indirectly can be used to show the impossibility of attaining absolute zero. It does not come up in the contexts of concern in this essay.

For those who want to learn more, I recommend The Second Law, by P.W. Atkins, Scientific American Books, New York, 1994. This is a well-written popular introduction to the subject. The reader is cautioned, however, that Atkins has a bias toward metaphysical naturalism which sometimes leads him to extrapolate from the science to unfounded metaphysical conclusions. If you can ignore the philosophy and stick to the science, you will learn a lot from his book. A good exposition at a higher technical level is given in the introductory chapters of Entropy, by J.D. Fast, McGraw Hill, 1962. [NOTE: Fast's classic work should not be confused with a book of the same title written around 1980 by notorious gadfly Jeremy Rifkin.] Of course any college textbook on thermodynamics will cover these topics.

A Brief History of the Second Law
Some of the following information is adapted from Ira N. Levine, Physical Chemistry, McGraw-Hill, 1978.

Something that was roughly the 2nd law was stated by French engineer Sadi Carnot in 1824 with regard to the efficiency of steam engines. [Carnot may also have been the first to postulate the 1st law, but he never published that and got no credit until long after his death.] Carnot's work was almost universally ignored, but was rediscovered (and stripped of its tie to the pre-1st-law "caloric" theory of heat) in the 1840's. Around 1850 came the first rigorous statements of the 2nd law by William Thomson (Lord Kelvin) and Rudolph Clausius. It was Clausius who first defined the quantity entropy and coined the word (from a Greek word meaning "transformation"). He made the often-quoted brief statement of the first and second laws: "Die Energie der Welt ist Konstant. Die Entropie der Welt strebt einem Maximum zu." [rough translation: The energy of the world (more properly, an isolated system) is constant. The entropy of the world strives toward a maximum.] Maxwell made his contributions a little later, followed by Boltzmann. Their main contributions here were in tying things to the concept of molecules (including the science of statistical mechanics, which they basically invented though Gibbs brought it to maturity), which was not a part of the thinking of people like Kelvin and Clausius.

The Second Law and Creation
Now we address the context in which the 2nd law arises in creation arguments. The usual argument goes something like this: "The 2nd law says everything tends toward increasing entropy (randomness and disorder). But the evolution of life involves the development of great complexity and order. Therefore, evolution is impossible by the 2nd law of thermodynamics." While it sounds simple, there are major flaws in this argument that render it worthless.

The Earth is Not an Isolated System
It is only in isolated systems that entropy must increase. Systems that can exchange energy with their surroundings have no such restriction. For example, water can freeze into ice (becoming more ordered and decreasing its entropy) by giving up heat to its surroundings (this increases the entropy of the surroundings, of course). In the case of the Earth, the Sun is a major source of energy, and the Earth also radiates energy into space. One consequence of thermodynamics is that, when energy comes from a "hot" source (like the Sun) and is output to a "cold" reservoir (like space), it can be used to do work, which means that "complexity" or "order" can be produced. The main point is that, for a non-isolated system, an increase in "complexity" (to the extent one can connect that concept with the thermodynamic entropy, which is far from straightforward for living creatures) does not necessarily indicate a violation of the 2nd law. A good example is the development of a human fetus into an adult; this is the production of a more thermodynamically complex system but involves no violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

It is worth mentioning here that the usual reply to creationists that "the second law doesn't apply to non-isolated systems" is not quite correct. The second law always applies; in fact, it was originally developed for non-isolated systems (the working fluid of a heat engine). The key point is that it is only in isolated systems that the second law takes the simplified "entropy must increase" form. For non-isolated systems, the second law still applies as a statement about heat flows and temperatures, just not in the form used in creationist arguments.

An Internal Inconsistency
Some creationists assert that advanced (especially human) life represents a decrease in entropy which violates the 2nd law, and they therefore invoke intervention by God, who is outside the laws of thermodynamics. They also, however, generally assert that this particular "intervention" stopped with the creation of man, and that (with the exception of the occasional miracle) God has allowed things to develop in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics and other physical laws since then.

These two assertions are, however, mutually inconsistent. The reason is that the thermodynamic entropy is strictly an additive quantity. If the 2nd law has not been violated as the number of humans grew from two to 6 billion, it is ridiculous to assert that it was violated in the comparatively minuscule change from zero to two. If we say that the first two humans represented a violation of the 2nd law, the logical co
nclusion would be that God must be continually intervening in violation of the 2nd law in order to increase the number of humans on Earth. While God is certainly capable of this, there is no evidence to suggest that such violations are happening as complex life forms like humans reproduce and increase in number. [NOTE: All this is not to say that God's creation of human life was not miraculous. My only point is that the specific assertion that the existence of human life in and of itself violates the 2nd law is unfounded.]

What About the Universe?
An occasional creationist response to the first flaw mentioned above is to say that, while the Earth is not an isolated system, the universe as a whole is. However, this does not help the argument they are trying to make. Astrophysicists, using data such as the cosmic background radiation, have verified that the universe has obeyed the second law of thermodynamics very well since the time of the big bang. The 2nd law predicts that something small and hot should become larger and colder, and that is just what has happened. The existence of some ordered life in a little corner of the universe like ours is a drop in the bucket - when the whole system is considered (which one must always do in thermodynamics), there is no violation of the second law in the development of the universe.

So what about "before" the inception of the universe? Can it be said that bringing into existence the hot, pointlike early universe from nothing was a violation of the 2nd law? While that argument has a certain appeal, and I believe the creation of the universe to have been miraculous, I think a 2nd-law argument is inappropriate here as well. The 2nd law is an attribute of the physical universe, describing how systems go with time. Modern physics tells us that the physical universe is not just space but also contains time as a fundamental dimension. The process by which all that came to be is not something that can be addressed by the laws (including the laws of thermodynamics) characterizing the resulting universe.

What About Information Theory?
Since their arguments do not work in terms of thermodynamics, some anti-evolutionists turn to information theory, which contains a quantity called "entropy." While I am no expert in information theory, I can offer some relevant comments.

As a preliminary, we must talk about the definition of entropy from statistical physics. This definition is mostly due to Boltzmann, and is even engraved on his tombstone. He defined the entropy of a system in terms of the number of different states available to it. So, for example, the expansion of a gas into double its original volume at constant temperature would represent an increase in entropy, because each molecule would have twice as much volume (and therefore twice as many "states") accessible to it. It is this definition that causes entropy to be thought of in terms of "disorder," because a highly ordered system like a crystal has fewer available states. Boltzmann's identification of this quantity with the thermodynamic entropy is now universally accepted.

More recently, a field has arisen called information theory. This deals with, among other things, quantifying the "information content" of various systems. Some of the results of information theory resemble the results of statistical physics, so much so that in certain well-defined conditions a quantity can be defined that is labeled "entropy" and that obeys something analogous to the 2nd law. While the identification of the information entropy with its thermodynamic counterpart is controversial, it is plausible enough to be taken seriously.

So some creationists, recognizing that their argument fails for the thermodynamic entropy, assert it in terms of the information entropy, which talks about things related to "complexity" and "disorder." It still doesn't work. First, there are real problems, without satisfactory solutions thus far, in quantifying the information entropy of living things. Someday this may be do-able, but right now science is not sufficiently well-developed to make definitive statements with regard to information entropy and life. Second, the first flaw mentioned above still applies in that the systems under consideration are not isolated. This means that, even if one can apply a "second law" to them, it will not be in the simple "entropy must increase" form valid for isolated systems. Finally, I can mention that, contrary to statements one finds in the creationist literature, cases are known in which genetic "information" (by some reasonable definition of the term) in living creatures can increase via natural processes.

What about "Energy Conversion Mechanisms"?
A few of those invoking the 2nd law to oppose evolution have recognized the isolated system problem, and responded by saying that for work and structure to be produced in a system, it is not enough to have energy flow, one must also have an "energy conversion mechanism." This statement is actually correct, but it does not help the anti-evolution cause. The biochemistry of life is full of such mechanisms (a more standard name is "dissipative structures"). Photosynthesis is one example, as are other pieces of the biochemistry of the cell. With these structures in place (in other words, once life exists), there is then no obstacle from the standpoint of thermodynamics to the evolution of more and different life.

One might, of course, ask about the origin of these dissipative structures. This is a legitimate question, though not really one of "evolution" (which normally refers to the development of life from other life) but instead one of "abiogenesis." Whether or not the biochemistry of life could arise "naturally" is one where the evidence is not so clear, and legitimate arguments can be made here. However, at this level the arguments are primarily about plausibility of chemical mechanisms rather than thermodynamics (and those who use them should not say their position is based on thermodynamics), so they are outside the scope of this essay.

Other Abuses of the Second Law
A common misuse of the 2nd law occurs in connection with events that are highly improbable. An example is the hypothetical origin of life from normal chemical processes, which has been compared to unlikely occurrences such as the assembly of a 747 by a tornado passing through a junkyard. That may or may not be an appropriate analogy, but it is definitely mistaken to assert that, simply because it is ridiculously unlikely, the scenario would represent a violation of the 2nd law. The important point is that, while violations of the 2nd law are highly improbable (this improbability is the essence of the 2nd law in the statistical-mechanical formulation), not every improbable event is a violation of the 2nd law. For example, if I flipped a coin 1000 times and came up "heads" each time, it would be highly improbable but would not violate any laws of thermodynamics.

Finally, there is the use of "entropy" in situations where thermodynamics is simply not relevant. One hears entropy invoked as an explanation for everything from my messy desk to the decline of society. That is tolerable and perhaps even useful as a metaphor; certainly there is some similarity between the "decay" and "disorder" in these situations and the thermodynamic consequences of the 2nd law. But we must not mistake metaphor for real physical law. To do so can lead to false and even harmful conclusions, such as when "relativity" is invoked to argue against the idea of absolute right and wrong.

The Second Law, Evil, and the Fall
My final topic is the occasional identification of entropy with "evil" or "death," an identification often accompanied by the assertion that the 2nd law is a consequence of the Fall. I believe that this is wrong for several reasons. [NOTE: I am neutral with regard to the literalness of the Biblical account of the Fall. I am open to the idea that it is a figurative account of mankind's collective rejection of God's authority. For simplicity, this section uses terminology that presumes the literal interpretation. But the arguments are not significantly affected if one takes a less literal view.]

First, I believe the identification of the 2nd law with "evil" is a consequence of some of the misconceptions mentioned above. We identify God (and therefore good) with "order," but mistakenly identify the ungodly "disorder" in the world with the thermodynamic entropy. Certainly entropy is a factor in some of the world's "disorder," such as the degradation of the environment. But gravity, electromagnetism, and the 1st law are all involved as well, and there are no grounds for assigning any special "evil" role to the 2nd law. Calling the 2nd law evil because it is involved in, for example, the decay that accompanies physical death is as unfounded as calling gravity evil when somebody falls off a cliff.

Second, the physical evidence strongly indicates that, like all God's other physical laws, the 2nd law has been operating since creation. Entropic processes are involved in the burning of the Sun and other stars (many of which emitted the light we see today longer ago than the 6000-20,000 years ago usually assigned to the Fall), and would have been involved as Adam and Eve walked, ate and digested their food, etc. Assuming there were flowers in the garden, it is the 2nd law that allowed Adam and Eve to smell them (again speaking against the concept that entropy is inherently evil). While it is not impossible that God had an entirely different set of physical laws in place before the Fall, such speculation is not supported by any scientific or Biblical evidence.

Third, we need to deal with Romans 8.18-23, which talks about (in the context of the final fulfillment of the Kingdom) how "the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (v. 21, NRSV). The "bondage to decay" is sometimes taken to refer to the 2nd law. That interpretation is at best incomplete. The Bible teaches (cf. Rev. 21) that, when all is said and done, God will throw out the current physical laws and create something that transcends all the limitations we now know. So while the "repeal" of the 2nd law may be a part of what the passage refers to, it is at most only a small portion of a much greater transformation. As to when the "bondage to decay" began, the passage says nothing to suggest it began with the Fall. Some of it, in fact, seems to imply that this bondage has been an aspect of creation from the beginning.

There may be an additional logical (and theological) fallacy at work in those who attribute the 2nd law to the Fall. The (faulty) line of reasoning goes something like, "Since the 2nd law will not exist in God's final Kingdom [that may or may not be the case], it must not have existed before the Fall." This simply does not follow. Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that the final Kingdom will simply be a restoration to pre-Fall conditions. Instead, it is pictured as something brand new and infinitely more glorious than what Adam and Eve experienced in the Garden.

With all that said, I should add that I do believe that the Fall has consequences. The primary result, of course, is our separation from God and resultant need for salvation. But Scripture does teach (Gen. 3.17) that there was also some negative consequence for our surroundings. I do not deny that, in some sense, the ground (and maybe even all of creation) is "cursed" because of our sin (I lean toward viewing that as our relationship to the environment being corrupted by sin). What I do deny is that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is any more a part of that curse than is gravity or any of the other physical laws God has crafted for His creation.

Final Thoughts
I used to think about entropy childishly. When I was about 20 and a fairly new Christian, I even wrote a poem called "The Second Law" in which I invoked entropy to explain decay of the human soul, of human society, and of Christ's church. [I later saw a "Life in Hell" cartoon listing "Entropy" as a topic about which all bad poets must eventually write.] Since then, I have learned more about thermodynamics and about God. I know how alluring the simplistic entropy arguments sound. But God calls us to truth, and that sometimes requires abandoning simplistic concepts.

My main purpose here is to dissuade my fellow followers of Christ from pursuing incorrect arguments based on a lack of understanding of the second law. One might ask whether it is really important for Christians to think about entropy in a mature manner. For many, it probably isn't. But for those who engage in apologetics, and for those who might find themselves defending the faith to those who are scientifically literate, I think it is important for three reasons.

The first is that, by abandoning these errors, we can focus more effectively on legitimate arguments for the faith. While I do not subscribe to the notion that one can arrive at Christianity through pure reason, I do believe that it is reasonable in all respects. With regard to origins, there are reasonable arguments that the universe and human life did not come about through random Godless chance. But none of these arguments is based on thermodynamics, and it can only confuse the issues and obscure God's truth when the 2nd law is inappropriately dragged in.

The second reason is the special responsibility to truth we have as people of God. There is no room for falsehood in God's kingdom, even in the defense of the Gospel. We should be diligent in our efforts to avoid bearing false witness, whether the victim is our next-door neighbor or Ludwig Boltzmann. Worldly politicians or marketers may say "I don't mind using a little falsehood as long as it helps persuade my audience," but that is unacceptable for a Christian. We who serve the God of truth should make a special effort to cleanse our words of all falsehood.

Finally, there is the Christian witness to the world. A small but not insignificant segment of the world is scientifically literate. It is tragic that many think of Christians only as "those people with the crackpot arguments about a young Earth and entropy" and do not even consider the Gospel because they think it requires them to believe things they know to be as silly as a flat Earth. The myth that Christianity is for stupid people is widespread, and part of the blame must rest on some Christians. This harm to our witness will only be overcome if Christians refocus their message on central truths (like the fact that God created everything) rather than trivial side issues (like how He did it), and repudiate those arguments (like the misuse of the 2nd law) that are simply incorrect. Many will still reject and belittle Christ and those who follow Him. But if the world is going to laugh at us, let it at least be for a central doctrine like the Cross or the Resurrection, or for our insistence on loving everybody, not for mistaken pseudoscientific arguments on peripheral issues.


Now, that essay, by an Evangelical Christian who happens to be be a thermodynamicist, addresses each and every single point of your protests, and exposes the ignorant misperceptions from which proceed your absurdities for the nonsense they are. You are left with but 3 options:

1) Drop your stupid, ID-iotic 2nd Law nonsense.

2) Credibly and authoritatively disprove what Dr. Harvey has written, thereby establishing his error and the primacy of your position

3) Continue with your ID-iotic 2nd Law nonsense, establishing thereby either that you prefer ignorance to knowledge or that you prefer lies to truth, no matter - either way, that tack serves only to perpetuate, as Dr. Harvey put it, " ... The myth that Christianity is for stupid people".
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 08:39 am
Re: Question: Evolution Releated.
real life wrote:
Now you've changed your mind, but don't want to admit that you've changed it. You want to pretend that this has always been your position. Not gonna work.

I'm glad you've finally come round. Just don't try to rewrite history.


I'm sorry if I phrased something previously in a way which you didn't feel was accurate RL, but I certain am not changing my mind or rewriting history regarding SLT. If anything, I'm trying to correct your misunderstanding of what was said.

But I'm not the authority on the SLT anyway, so let's not waste time arguing about what I said. Timber is providing tons of research material on SLT (and just about everything else anyone could possible want), so you've got plenty of resources to use to understand SLT.

The basic problem is that you belive that the SLT and Evolution are in conflict with each other, and they are not. The SLT and Evolution are scientific facts, and I find it ridiculous that you think we should defend basic physics and science against your misunderstandings. They don't need defending.

I don't mind helping someone who is trying to understand something, but you're not trying to understand anything, you're just desperately clinging to misinformation which assuages your fear of evolution. There is tons of information online from respected academic sources which explains SLT and Evolution. These questions have been answered before. What good does it do us to rehash it all?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 08:56 am
This probably ought to have been in the Superstition and Religion forum (or whatever the name of that forum is), rather than Science and Mathematics. I suspect that those who consider issues such as the relation of the second law to evolution are likely to have been influenced by religious sources--for example, the author of this thread writes: The reason is because I saw this book on creation that mentioned it. So I came here to get a better understand of that Law.

However, i suppose it is well enough placed here--but i do suspect that the religiously motivated are much less likely to see it in this forum than in the other.

I had not seen the last passage which the Big Bird posted, from the scientist who states that he is a Christian. My thanks to him, as ever, for the excellent material he posts.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Feb, 2007 12:12 am
Setanta,

I don't see that the man's statement that he is a Christian gives his argument regarding the Second Law any added validity , does it?

Not sure why that's relevant at all.

Hope you're having a great day.
0 Replies
 
 

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