The Iraq Questions

juliekopcke wrote:

What about our ability in the US to hide our chemical, viral, and bacteria weapons? Shouldn't someone demand that we be inspected and that all countries stop landmines and chemical, viral and bacteria weapons of mass destruction? We can't demand that small countries do as we say but not as we do.

There is a great moral difference between the US and Iraq which you seem to ignore. The US has refrained from using its WMDs. Iraq has enthusiastically and gratuitously employed them. We indeed do have every right to demand that Iraq, a proven aggressor nation, give up its WMD. No nation has a right to inspect ours. The fact is, our weapons are one of the guarantees of peace in large sections of the world.

juliekopcke wrote:

We blew off the first bomb and it killed masses of innocent civilians who did not vote for an emperor that led them into war.

The Japanese civilians were enthusiastic supporters of the war, going so far as to cheer their boys in head-cutting contests in China. Thank God we had an atom bomb to drop on them to stop their madness. Had we not done so, far more people would have been killed. As it was, the Japanese were killing Chinese on the order of the population of Hiroshima every two weeks. The people of Hiroshima were not innocent, either.

juliekopcke wrote:

We have a president that is leading us into war and the majority of the population did not put him in office.

Yet, the majority of the population support him now. Polls show that the majority also believes that America was lucky that Bush was elected rather than Gore. How do you explain that, Julie?

juliekopcke wrote:

We must have an international law which everyone follows.
We cannot remain the bull dog bully that supplies the world with arms as the number one supplier of arms in the world-
While at the same time demanding that those arms we supplied to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan are in violation after we sold them those arms.
What hypocrisy?

You have your facts mixed up. The reason that the inspectors are in Iraq and we are flying patrols over Iraq is that Saddam Hussein defies international law. If such compliance is one of your principles, you should support its enforcement.

We did not supply Iraq with nukes, which is the issue here. Nor did we supply Iraq with SCUDs. We don't supply Iran with any weapons. I'd be curious to hear what nonexistent weapons we gave them that you believe we are now complaining about. We didn't supply Afghanistan with any weapons much more than small arms and Stingers during the war with the Soviet Union. We have not claimed any of those violated any laws. So again, it appears that this assertion of yours is invented out of whole cloth.

Tantor

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Tantor said, again...

Quote:

It is typical for liberals to avoid arguing in detail and simply dismiss ideas different from theirs. This is just another instance of the same. It won't be the last.

Generalities such as your first sentence here, logically fallacious, fall too easily from your keyboard. It's one of the reasons your posts commonly lack merit.

Another is that no one posting here is more guilty of precisely the charge you make than is yourself. Have you, for example, provided a single link to verify the myriad claims you make? How often, for example, do your sentences begin with "It is my opinion that...". Are there any such examples?

Let's be forthright here, Tantor. Is your goal in posting to persuade or to taunt? Do smiles cross your face when you see a liberal angry, or when you witness someone thinking of a point you've proposed? How would you define 'valuable contribution' in discourse here?

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Tantor, blatham offers unjudgemental criticism and valid advice. Much of your argument must be itnerpreted as opinion and conjecture, lacking links to independently verifiable corroboration for many of the claims made. An interested reader could then choose to read and weigh your "evidence" to satisfaction one way or another. There is nothing WRONG with opinion, yours or anyone elses, but it should be clearly labled as such, and used carefully ... as is true of any flammable volatile.

timber

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blatham wrote:

Tantor said, again...

Quote:
It is typical for liberals to avoid arguing in detail and simply dismiss ideas different from theirs. This is just another instance of the same. It won't be the last.

Generalities such as your first sentence here, logically fallacious, fall too easily from your keyboard. It's one of the reasons your posts commonly lack merit.?

It is in fact an accurate observation.

blatham wrote:

Another is that no one posting here is more guilty of precisely the charge you make than is yourself. Have you, for example, provided a single link to verify the myriad claims you make? How often, for example, do your sentences begin with "It is my opinion that...". Are there any such examples?

Sounds like I accurately label my posts, doesn't it? No, I don't provide links for things I read a year ago. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it. It's up to you to stay up with current events. However, on big issues I'd be happy to supply links to back up my assertions.

blatham wrote:

Let's be forthright here, Tantor. Is your goal in posting to persuade or to taunt? Do smiles cross your face when you see a liberal angry, or when you witness someone thinking of a point you've proposed? How would you define 'valuable contribution' in discourse here?

I present another point of view, one that is unknown to you. You characterize it as taunting because I directly challenge the myths you have uncritically accepted. You are not used to diverse thinking and are uncomfortable with it.

You should regard such intellectual conflict as a valuable opportunity to reflect on your own views and review how you came by them, if in fact they are correct upon close examination. If your position is solid, you should have no difficulty in defending it and refuting me.

However, if your opinions are gained lightly, because you wanted to fit in with the crowd or perhaps because you have heard it repeated many times, it could be quite a painful education to discover them to be false.

You may thank me for enlarging your world.

Tantor

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Tantor, then your positions are indefensible and should be considered as same. The taunting must stop! You are not the "Last Patriot". There is not a one of us on this thread that is not a patriot.

And I find your description of yourself as:

Quote:

The Tantor is an American patriot dedicated to the promotion of Conservative Good over Liberal Evil.

To be inappropriate and a shame. Since you are the self proclaimed defender against all Evil; and, you feel it should be wiped off the face of the Earth without question - where does that place a major portion of the population of the USA. In my book, that quote is more vile that Trent Lott's.

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Will you folks please stick to facts, label opinion as opinion, and stay away from personal attacks! Personally, I find "listening" to various viewpoints illuminating, but not when I have to wade through invective. Please cease and desist, or I will be obliged to lock the thread. Thank you.

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Now, c'mon, folks! You're gonna make Phoenix mad if you keep that stuff up, and she won't let us play together.

timber

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BillW wrote:

Tantor, then your positions are indefensible and should be considered as same. The taunting must stop! You are not the "Last Patriot". There is not a one of us on this thread that is not a patriot..

If my positions are indefensible, you should have no problem finding their logical flaws and pointing them out. Why aren't you doing that?

I suspect that you are offended by opinions that differ from yours, especially when they are presently so plainly.

BillW wrote:

And I find your description of yourself as:

Quote:
The Tantor is an American patriot dedicated to the promotion of Conservative Good over Liberal Evil.

To be inappropriate and a shame. Since you are the self proclaimed defender of all Evil; and, you feel it should be wiped off the face of the Earth without question - where does that place a major portion of the population of the USA. In my book, that quote is more vile that Trent Lott's.

[/quote]

You might want to read that again, Bill. It says I'm against Evil, not for it.

You're wrapped kinda tight, arentcha, Bill?

Tantor

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I will not accept your taunts, please pay attention to the requests to cease and desists!

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Well, if nothing else, plenty of emotional baggage is being unpacked on this thread.

timber

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Phoenix, Tantor, et al

There are protocols of style for valuable debate which, when not adhered to, make the exercise futile - folks yelling from soapboxes. THIS IS AN ENTIRELY SEPARATE MATTER FROM OPINIONS EXPRESSED. This is first year philosophy material, it's easy (where some other debate style is not habituated ) and it is simple.

If one makes a claim, one gives substantiation, or gives a clear line of reasoning.

One doesn't fall to nor allow generalizations, because they are never true in any logical sense.

One doesn't use or allow logical fallacies - eg, an attack on the speaker rather than the point made.

We have a new and very promising forum here. To the degree we adhere to such protocols, to that degree our forum will be valuable for all of us in clarifying our own ideas and in being able to listen to the ideas of others and thus learn. To the degree that we don't follow these protocols, we will fall into the childish partisan bickering that we witnessed on abuzz or that we can see on TV.

Where I see a continual or habitual refusal to adhere to these protocols of rational discussion, I will push for the ouster of that person.

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Blatham- I'm with you. I think that you are right "on target"!

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Agree fully with Phoenix and blatham.

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Phoenix

Thank you kindly. I'm out now for the day and wish you all fine morning, afternoon, or evening.

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I just have to extend a hearty "Well Done" and a congratulatory cyber-back-pat to CDK, Phoenix, and all of the other moderators and guides. Your proactive approach and constant attention ensure great things for A2K. There can be little doubt this forum is destined to become one of the most vigorous, highly esteemed of its type on the web. Thanks, folks, for giving us a winner!

timber

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"Yeah, yeah," as in English parliament parlance. I agree wholeheartedly. c.i.

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Some people are impossible to argue with because they do not or will not adhere to the rules of argument. Often they have a very high opinion of themselves which leads them into the trap of believing their own assertions and ignoring such trifles as corroborative evidence.

But they're not difficult to deal with. Mostly just go along with what they say (ignoring the errors of fact and the personal invective) until it becomes so inflated and preposterous that the addition of just a tiny contrary fact is like introducing the balloon to a needle.

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c.i.

It might sound like yeah yeah!

in the BRITISH (please note) Parliament to you, but what they are actually saying is

Hear Hear!

(Usually accompanied at particularly exciting moments by waving bits of paper about, their order papers for the day's business- they are not allowed to clap).

And as the day's business does not start until after a good lunch, and carries on until after a good evening meal, a lot of them feel the need to Hear Hear! quite ethusiastically when they are in the Chamber and not in one of the numerous bars at the Palace of Westminster (as the Houses of Parliament is officially known).

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Steve

You must admit that it was an ENGLISH boy group, who started the "yeah, yeah" business (in Germany, btw).

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If one is getting their news from the internet, nearly all of it is archived for a year or more. That is, if the news is corroborated in the first place -- not editorialized, one source, out-of-the-blue winging it like NewsPox. In a debate, it's on the shoulders of each individual debater to corroborate their evidence for their own assertions. Opinions get undermined when contradicted by many sources and credulity is thrown out of the window when debaters contradict themselves. Nobody should step forward now unless they feel guilty.

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The Iraq Questions

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