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BBB it is aerodynamically possible for bumblebees to fly

 
 
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:01 pm
I couldn't hold it back any more. Sorry BBB.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 8,222 • Replies: 33
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:01 pm
hmmmmm... looks like he found some fun!
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:02 pm
It's no fun to break stuff of legend. Sniff snifff

I feel like a mean old man taking santa away...
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:03 pm
Actually, BBB has a point Craven. A standing bumblebee cannot get off the ground--it is necessary for them to begin the movement of their wings until they have increased the heat in the muscles controlling those wings to the point that they develop enough force to articulate the wings sufficiently to produce lift . . .
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:03 pm
sooooo, what do they do do, float?
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:03 pm
lookit that, thanks Setanta, for the details.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:06 pm
setanta,

If that were a point then it would be fair to say that it is aerodynamically impossible for a plane to fly from a aircraft carrier.

The quote in BBB's signature is a very famous "urban ledgend" of the false variety.

Bumblebees would not be aerodynamically sound only if they were a fixed wing insect.

The original calculation that started the legend was done by a drunk man using calculations for fixed-wing aircraft.
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:37 pm
Do hummingbirds need to "build heat" also?
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:39 pm
Good question Boss, one of my fondest childhood memories was standing slack-jawed, gaping at the hummingbirds among the trumpet vines and morning glorys, as the newly risen sun burned the dew off the grape arbor . . .
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:43 pm
Hang on - BBs are insect and hummingbirds are not. Must be a difference there. Aren't insects more like reptiles in that their body temps are non self-regulating?
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Montana
 
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Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 11:33 pm
Bookmark
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 03:10 am
Yes - 'tis why they have to warm up those wee muscles a lot.

May I say they fly MOST charmingly, so they do - with their dear, pursy little furry teddy-bear bodies and their dear low hum.
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 03:10 am
This is the bumblebees, I have, sadly, never seen a hummingbird in real life.
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Montana
 
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Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 09:34 am
We have 3 hummingbird feeders in front of windows all around the house and we have tons of them. Very beautiful little bird and they fly so fast that you can barely see them go by. Since The feeders are in the windows, we have a really good view of them. They come every ten minutes to feed and the same ones come every year. They are the only birds that can hover in one spot. They really are very interesting little birds and aggessive little things.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 09:42 am
Humming birds
Hummingbirds are among the most noisy of birds. I once lived at the foot of a large hillside where Hummingbirds were plentiful. I kept hearing loud screeching and finally discovered the racket was coming from the hummingbirds, and it wasn't mating season, so I guess they are just a rowdy bunch.

BumbleBeeBoogie
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 09:50 am
Craven is just a trouble maker
Craven, you are such a trouble maker; don't you have anything better to do that to bully poor defensless bumble bees? :wink:

---BumbleBeeBoogie

BUMBLE BEES
Bumble bees get their name from the way they fly. Because they sway about in the air so much they look as if they are drunk! In fact this motion is caused by the extra weight the bee has to carry. Tiny parasites attach themselves to the bees hairy body, and although they do not seem to cause the bee any big health problems, they do affect the bees balance in the air.

Latin name: Bombus terrestris
Size: Approximately 16mms from head to tail.
Distribution: Found throughout the UK.
Months seen: February to October.
Habitat: Meadows, parks and gardens.
Food: Nectar.

Special features: The 'buff-tailed bumble bee' seen in this photo is the largest of the 18 species of bumble bee found in the U.K. Although they are quite a large insect they are relatively harmless, and will only sting if provoked.

The females take to the wing as early as February, after sheltering through the cold winter months. They make a distinctive droning, buzzing sound as they fly. Only the fertilised females survive the cold winter months, all the males die off. When they awake, after their winter hibernation without food, their number one priority is to find food.

Bumble bees feed on pollen and nectar. As they feed, they perform a vital role in pollinating many plants and trees.

With their energy levels restored, the females begin nest building. The nest is usually a hole in a sand bank, or an old mouse hole, which often contains the added luxury of some old mouse bedding.

They are social bees, and a nest, or colony, may contain up to 150 bees. This is quite a small number compared to a honey bee nest which can have over 50,000 bees.
--------------------------------

"Is It Possible For A bumble Bee To Fly?

The title may sound like a dumb question because obviously bumble bees do fly, but no fixed wing study in a conventional wind tunnel has shown how enough lift can be generated to lift the huge mass of a bumble bee (compared to its wing size). A wide range of studies have been done in recent years to try to understand the bee's unique method of flying.

Insects like the bee do not flap their wings up and down as one might think. The movement of their wings is forward and backward. Lay your right hand on the table (palm down) and move it to the left. That is what the bee does as the first part of its wing beat. This movement produces lift because your hand produces the same effect as an airplane wing. Air moving over the top produces a low pressure because of the greater curvature, a principal known as Bernoulli's principal. Now flip your hand over (palm up) and return it to its original position.

Computer studies shown that the timing of the flip is critical. The wake of the forward stroke allows the wing to recapture energy as the wing is moved back. There is a surge of forces on the wing as this happens which provides great lift at minimal energy. Dr. Adrian Thomas of Oxford University says, "The whole system is a lot more complicated than we thought." A lot remains to be done to understand this, but the maneuverability and efficiency of it indicates man needs to understand to improve his own methods of flying.

To suggest that such systems come about by chance strains credibility to the limit. The enormous complexity of the motion, the design of the wings to do the flying, and the support system that moves the wing all speaks of highly planned and designed structures that we still do not totally understand."
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 09:53 am
BBB
Are you sure that the noise was coming from the hummingbirds? They make a soft mellow sound that's hard to describe, but it's not often that I hear them making that sound. When they buzz by very close to you, you hear the loud hum of their wings. When outside, they come close to flying right into me sometimes.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 09:59 am
Bees Can't Fly!
This Dude says bees can't Fly!

It is a law of physics that in order to achieve flight, the power to weight ratio and the lift area must be finely balanced. Great, I'm no Einstein, but I can live with that explanation.

That is until you look at the Bumble Bee. Lets face it, it's wings are short stubby things. It's power to weight ratio is all wrong, it doesn't have much muscle power and it has the aerodynamic properties of a building brick. Other flying insects have a wing area that extends beyond the body, the bumble bee doesn't, but then neither do some moths, on the other hand, moths tend to weigh less than your average bumble, and have nice wide wings.

Ergo……. Bees can't fly. Sorted.

In a conversation this week about search engines in particular and ten-20 in general with an "expert on the internet" (definition. 'Ex' is a has been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure) He reliably informed me that it was impossible for Ten-20 to be successful as there were much bigger organisations with bigger websites and much bigger budgets all trying to achieve the same aims. He dismissed the obvious evidence on search engines i.e. no.1 on Lycos, 2, 3 and 4 on Alta vista as well as the Excite and Hotbot results as a fluke of nature and we must have been devious somewhere. (The search criteria was 'portal websites for disabled people')

Why bother to mention this? Don't you just get irritated by very smart individuals all of whom despite being able in body are severely disabled in mind due to the fact their knowledge and or experience exceeds that of open and obvious evidence. What is worse they have no faith in others and deep down if the truth be known…. in themselves.

I do occasionally get a tad miffed when I hear reasons why objectives can not be achieved. It does not matter what those objectives are, they can relate to anyone or thing. As a parent I hear it all the time, it starts with "But Dad….." I usually suggest we turn the problem around and start looking for ways things can be done instead of reasons why it can't. If you are able to set an objective, then at least go for it. I am the last person to knock failed attempts, I have a bigger collection of those than most. There is a well known American sales trainer who used to say "What the mind of man can conceive and believe, he can achieve"

That floats my boat.

Twenty years ago I worked for a guy who had two signs up, one on his office door which said "my door is always open" this always struck me as odd as the sign was only readable door closed. The other sign was on the wall behind his desk, it read " Got a problem? then let me hear a choice of solutions. Or are 'you' part of the problem? We all knew that it did not matter what the dilemma was, or even what we had done, we were sunk without trace without a choice of solutions. Nine times out of ten he would come up with a different solution, which used to annoy me at the time, but I now realise it was that elusive skill for a youngster called experience. Mind you I taxed his patience to the limit once, when I had to report I had trashed a third car in a month. My choice of solutions was to ban me from driving company cars!!! (It was cheaper than offering to pay for the damage). He didn't, but I did spend the next three months in the oldest, most beaten up motor car that his kids had learned to drive in. This taught me three things.

1) Respect. He is still Mr Anderson to me today.
2) When I finally did get my nice new shiny Rover, to slow down.
3) You can still date pretty girls in an old banger. Street cred has nothing to do with it.

The example of the Bee is an inspiration to us all whatever our disability, mind or body. We all know Bees can fly, the evidence is plain even for my so called expert. The question is how do they do it? The answer is very simple.

1. Your common or garden bumble bee ain't no Einstein. But he sure is a trier.
2. No one's told him he can't.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 10:01 am
Montana
Montana, you are right about hummingbird sound when they are near you. However, when they are calling to their buddies for a poker game, they screech an ear-piercing sound that would peel paint off the wall.

BumbleBeeBoogie

Nonvocal Sounds
When we think of bird sounds, singing is the first thing that comes to mind. But many birds have found other ways of generating acoustical signals to serve functions usually accomplished by songs. Some bird sounds used in territorial and courtship displays are produced with their bills, feet, wings, or tails. Many songbirds clack their bills, but otherwise the use of such sounds in displays is limited primarily to species with poor singing abilities and occurs infrequently among the passerines.

Mated storks and albatrosses often communicate with bill clattering and bill tapping, but the best-known use of bills to produce auditory displays among North American birds is the drumming of several woodpecker species. Both sexes engage in loud rhythmical drumming by striking their bills against a hollow or dried branch or, to the annoyance of many homeowners, metal gutters, stovepipes, drainpipes, and even trash cans! In the Yellow-bellied Sapsucker, Northern Flicker, Downy Woodpecker, and Hairy Woodpecker, drumming functions much as song does to proclaim territorial boundaries and to attract mates.

By altering the spacing of wing or tail feathers and causing them to vibrate, birds can create a variety of whistling, rattling, buzzing, or other sounds as air passes through those feathers in flight. These sounds are evident in the courtship displays of the American Woodcock, Common Snipe, several swifts, and in the booming sound of Common Nighthawk flight. Sound made by the two wings or their carpal bones actually striking each other occur in the display flights of Short-eared and Long-eared Owls. One of the best-known woodland sounds of spring, the drumming of male Ruffed Grouse, is performed from a low perch such as a fallen log. The sound is produced by the cupped wings of the male grouse striking the air as he flaps them forward and upward. Grouse drumming serves for both territorial defense and mate attraction and is easily detectable as much as a quarter of a mile away.
*********************
Males of the eight hummingbird species that breed widely north of the Mexican border employ wind-and-feather-derived sounds in their territorial and courtship displays. Male Broad-tailed Hummingbirds use a shrill wing whistle when defending courting territories. Birds experimentally silenced by placing a thin film of glue on the tips of the noise-making primary feathers defended their territories less effectively. Presumably they could not communicate threat and were generally less aggressive because they did not hear their own buzzing flight.

The most spectacular courtship sound of hummers is the explosive noise made by a male Anna's Hummingbird at the bottom of its U-shaped dive as it passes near a perched female. The name "hummingbird" was acquired from the early English colonists who knew only the Ruby-throated Hummingbird of the east with its buzzing flight. The majority of hummingbird species, however, produce only relatively inconspicuous flight sounds, and instead use song to a much greater extent in their courtship display.
*****************************
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 10:02 am
Anyone ever see a Bummingbird? Just curious....
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