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Crapulent Experimenter (The Experimenter Having a Hang-over)

 
 
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2006 02:24 am
The Mental Experiment Illustrating a Situation with
Researches of a Microcosm


I

Assume that a certain physicist - experimenter has received the task to fix coordinate of a certain researched micro particle on an X-axis in determined instant T1 with the arbitrary accuracy. Whether accomplishing such job is real?

Generally speaking, in the attitude of measuring in a microcosm there are the determined limitations expressed by an uncertainty, or indeterminacy, principle of the Heisenberg. These limitations touch some combinations of parameters of microparticles which cannot be simultaneously metered with the arbitrary accuracy. But in this case the question is only one act of measuring of simple parameter only on one axis of spatial coordinates. So any, even the most rigorous physicist will say: yes, it is possible, no limitations. This job is quite feasible.

So, our experimenter starts matter. If in assigned instant T1 he will push a red start button of measuring experiment, in the result will receive coordinate of micro particle X1 with the arbitrary exactitude. What will be this? It is important to underscore, that it there will be not a blurry spatial cloud of probability values, not the abstract mathematical matrix, not transformation of any mysterious function Ψ, but a concrete point on an abscissa axis. It is precise measurement result localized in time and along one spatial axis of coordinates.

However this situation is complicated by fact that the experimenter has begun one's work in a state of the strong hang-over after a yesterday's major junket. It is difficult for him to hit the red start button. So he has missed and could not start experiment therefore. The act of measuring was not taking place.

There are no problems. It is possible to make measuring a little later. Assume that our physicist has decided to postpone the act of measuring till the moment of time T2 = T1 + t, where t = 1 minute. As the first act of measuring was not taking place, the situation basically was not varied. Any limitations have not arisen. Anew is admissible measuring with the arbitrary accuracy. If all will be correct, the experimenter will receive precise coordinate of micro particle X2. It too will be a point on an abscissa axis, but already in the other place.
Some, probably, have already guessed that our physicist and this time have missed, has not hit the red start button. The act of measuring again was not taking place.

It is decided to postpone the act of measuring till the moment of time T3 = T2 + t. The situation has remained in a former state. It is possible to start experiment and to receive precise coordinate X3. It again will be a point on an abscissa axis, but in the other place. But for ours physics really a rainy day is. He again, both again, and again misses.

So, we shall interpret a situation. Our experimenter has series of opportunities for fulfillment of the act of measuring in instants T1, T2, T3 … T(n) … with an interspaces t. In any of these moments he can receive precise coordinate of a micro particle on abscissa axis X1, X2, X3 … X (n) …. Using fact that in mental experiments it is possible to allow some amusing things, we shall force a time interval t to aim to 0. In the total we shall receive infinite series of points on an abscissa axis, the interspaces between which will aim too to 0. Points actually merge in one curve.

What this curve is? It is the diagram of precise coordinates of a micro particle along an abscissa axis within of some time interval. Thus, to any instant within of this interspace there will correspond a point on a curve, having precise coordinate on an abscissa axis. It is possible to say and differently: each point on this curve can be found, if the experimenter at the conforming moment will start the only one act of measuring. Evidently, the rigid determinism here takes place; there are no loop-holes for randomness and probabilities.

But it is not all. We shall assume that our physicist turned out so clumsy, that has touched research facility and has unintentionally changed a shoulder of the measuring instrument from an X-axis for a Y-axis. Now all measurings will be valid for an axis of ordinates. In the total the concrete curve with potentially measurable coordinates of a micro particle will be obtained again. All axes in our case are equal in rights, so in the result of the same mental trick we can receive a precise coordinate curve and along a Z-axis.

So, we have three curves along three axes of coordinates. They can be integrated in one spatial curve which can be safely named "trajectory". If the experimenter makes the only one act of measuring on any of three axes of coordinates at any moment within of the given interspace, he gains a point on this curve (and nowhere else!). On the other hand, each point on this spatial curve can be found, if to make the act of measuring in the conforming instant on any of three axes of coordinates (for choice). The complete unique correspondence which is not abandoning places for different interpretations.

As a result of this mental experiment we come to a conclusion, that the curve of locomotion of a micro particle really exists, has precise localizing in space and time and can be easily found with the arbitrary accuracy in any point on any (for choice) of three axes of coordinates. Quite routine determinism is.

II

Problems will start, when we shall set the task to receive, say, precise coordinates of two or more points at once. Here the key limitation characterizing the nature of our relationships with a microcosm already comes into operation. We have termed it as "a problem of the second (following) measuring". Physicists of twentieth century have described it with the help of an uncertainty, or indeterminacy, principle of the Heisenberg.

There are events in a human macrocosm; there are events in a microcosm. And there is a process of transfer, of presentation of events of a microcosm in our macrocosm. It is important to underscore, that the above mentioned problem does not touch on events in a human macrocosm and a microcosm. It touches only process of translation. Here, on border of two worlds and determinisms, really there are the key difficulties about which we already wrote in the article « Edit [Moderator]: Link removed ».

Primitively it can be described, how a non - delivery from a microcosm to a human macrocosm more than one precise (with the arbitrary accuracy) measuring value. How to be with other necessary values? Now that is detected a defect in our habitual deterministic exploratory methodology that inevitably uncloses gates for indefiniteness and randomness, it is necessary in the capacity of reimbursement to resort to usage of indirect descriptively - computational procedures: blurry spatial clouds of probability values, the abstract templates and artful transformations of mysterious function Ψ.

It is important to underscore once more, that all these indirect procedures have no direct attitude to actual events and processes in a microcosm. These are only computing - descriptive procedures simply convenient for physicists, permitting though somehow to tackle a problem of presentation of events of one pattern in the other. In the above-stated mental experiment it has been clarified, that the curve of locomotion micro particle (trajectory) really exists, also its each point can be found experimentally with the arbitrary accuracy. However it is not possible for us to map this curve on the diagram with the arbitrary accuracy (though roughly it can be made in a bubble chamber or the expansion (cloud) chamber).

Positivists (physicists and philosophers) in this situation draw an amusing conclusion, that the trajectory does not exist in the nature of a microcosm, that the micro particle is not point object precisely localized in space, but represents a probability cloud, blurring on space and time, and also other nonsense.

Materialists, physicists and philosophers, should answer this ugliness strictly in a scientific way with the differentiated approach: separation of recent descriptively - computational models of a reality from the physical reality in itself. Eventually, it will allow to retire in a modern physics of a microcosm from already bothered domination of the superficial descriptively - computational methodology and to achieve successes in deeper understanding of essence of relevant physical processes. Shocked
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 06:28 pm
Quote:
Assume that a certain physicist - experimenter has received the task to fix coordinate of a certain researched micro particle on an X-axis in determined instant T1 with the arbitrary accuracy. Whether accomplishing such job is real?

[EDIT: Removed inane ramblings]

But in this case the question is only one act of measuring of simple parameter only on one axis of spatial coordinates. So any, even the most rigorous physicist will say: yes, it is possible, no limitations. This job is quite feasible.


Please learn the English language if you want to post in an English forum. Just because you know the url for Babelfish doesn't mean you speak English.

Although you haven't defined the coordinate system origin I will assume that you mean for it to be defined within some inertial frame of reference. Anyway the answer to what I think you are asking is simply No, it's not possible, and limiting the number of dimensions you consider does not change anything.
0 Replies
 
LonelyWarrior
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:39 am
stuh505 wrote:

Anyway the answer to what I think you are asking is simply No, it's not possible, and limiting the number of dimensions you consider does not change anything.


It seems to me, you are poorly familiar with philosophical problems of a quantum mechanics.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:49 am
LonelyWarrior wrote:
stuh505 wrote:

Anyway the answer to what I think you are asking is simply No, it's not possible, and limiting the number of dimensions you consider does not change anything.


It seems to me, you are poorly familiar with philosophical problems of a quantum mechanics.


This is the science forum. There's a philosophical forum next to the Spirituality forum. If this is really a philosophical post, have it moved there.
0 Replies
 
LonelyWarrior
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 01:11 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

This is the science forum. There's a philosophical forum next to the Spirituality forum. If this is really a philosophical post, have it moved there.


Even fathers-founders of quantum mechanics could not do without philosophy to explain to people the system. You have overtaken them?
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 05:01 am
LonelyWarrior wrote:
It seems to me, you are poorly familiar with philosophical problems of a quantum mechanics.


Wolf O'Donnell wrote:
This is the science forum. There's a philosophical forum next to the Spirituality forum. If this is really a philosophical post, have it moved there.


Actually, Wolf, I think LW means "philosophy" in the general sense of "generally accepted way to go about doing things" or "tools of the trade".

For instance, a house builder might say, "My philosophy when putting up a house is to use plenty of concrete in the foundation to make sure it will withstand anything". I think you will agree that such a statement does not belong in the philosophy forum, along with discussions of Locke.
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