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if they call you a neanderthal

 
 
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:08 am
According to study we're not Neanderthals:

Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Cro-Magnon vs. Neanderthal

May 12, 2003 ?- Neanderthals did not contribute to the gene pool of modern humans, according to a recent study that compared the DNA of two ancient Cro-Magnons with that of four Neanderthals.

While Neanderthals and early humans coexisted in Europe for a few thousand years 40,000 years ago, the findings suggest they did not interbreed, an action that would have made Neanderthals a direct ancestor of modern humans.

The study also supports the "Out of Africa" theory. According to this view, modern humans evolved in East Africa and then spread into Europe and Asia through the Middle East.









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Learn more about Neanderthals





This opposes the "multiregional mode of expansion" theory, which holds that early humans, including Neanderthals, were unique but related populations within one evolving species.

For the study, published in the current Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers extracted mitochondrial DNA from Cro-Magnon skeletons found in the Paglicci cave of Southern Italy. The first set of remains dated to approximately 23,000 years ago. The second individual lived around 24,720 years ago.

Mitochondrial DNA is inherited unchanged from the mother only, allowing researchers to trace unadulterated DNA back hundreds of thousands of years.

When the Cro-Magnon mtDNA was compared with existing mtDNA data from four Neanderthals dating between 29,000-42,000 years ago, virtually no similarities were found.

The genetic information then was compared with that of four prehistoric Europeans who lived between 5,500-14,000 years ago, and also with a database of mtDNA information for 2,566 modern Europeans and Near Easterners.

No matches were found when Neanderthals were compared with ancient and modern humans. Cro-Magnons, however, had genetic sequences present in 14 percent of the modern humans represented in the database, particularly individuals from the Near and Middle East.

"In samples from Yemen, Syria, Iran, Palestine are found individuals with a sequence belonging to the same group as the Paglicci samples," explained Giorgio Bertorelle, an author of the PNAS paper and an assistant professor of population genetics and genetic epidemiology at the University of Ferrara in Italy.

The link to the Near and Middle Eastern countries seems reasonable, Bertorelle said, because this was the likely route of expansion that early humans followed.

Alan Cooper, professor of zoology at Oxford University, agreed with the findings, but suggests that Neanderthals should not be ruled out just yet as direct human ancestors.

"There is still a remote possibility that only nuclear DNA was contributed, or that any Neanderthal mtDNA lineage has been lost during human population bottlenecks in the last glacial max, but the odds appear pretty slim," said Cooper.

Henry Harpending, professor of anthropology at the University of Utah, also hesitated to rule out the possibility of a human-Neanderthal connection. Harpending further believes that the multiregional mode of expansion theory still is plausible, as "mtDNA seems to have a different history than much of the rest of the genome."

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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 4,703 • Replies: 56
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:14 am
I just have a difficult time believing that Cro-Magnon didn't do the wild thing with Neanderthal.

Does this seem a little, well, odd to anybody else?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:27 am
A former co-worker of me (and additionally some old friends of my wife) are called Neanthalers: they live there. :wink:


This is the link to the museum in Neanderthal
Neanderthal Museum
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patiodog
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:31 am
Whether they did it or not may be immaterial; if they were gametically incompatible (that is, fertilization was impossible) they could do all the wild thing they wanted without producing offspring.

Not that this means I agree with the conclusions of this study, necessarily; there has been a lot of work demonstrating that the two groups were separate species, but not enough to eliminate any doubt. And since this study focuses on mtDNA, it is conceivable that a "human" sperm was incompatible with a neanderthal egg, but that a "human" egg could be fertilized by a neanderthal sperm. (I don't know of any precedents for this in nature; just trying to come up with as many questions against the premise as I can.)
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bobsmyth
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:35 am
if they call you a neanderthal
It's unlikely. The difference in physiognomy would I think make each repellent to the other. The differences between the two may in fact be so vast in their mind's eyes that intercourse would be problematical
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:37 am
A quite reasonable explanation, patio, for someone like me whose knowledge of biology is limited.

It also explains a good bit about why those country boys aren't fathering half-bovine, half-human offspring.

Oh wait a minute, that doesn't explain some of those Texas Neoconservative Republicans, on second thought...
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:40 am
bob:

Are you suggesting that evolution of the mind enables, let's call it, 'deviant sexual behavior'?

(This isn't a challenge. I'm genuinely curious, and freely admit to being completely a rube in this area.)
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bobsmyth
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:53 am
if they call you a neanderthal
I see Letty has the same post under History forum "We ain't kissing cousins?"
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mabon52
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:17 am
I find this thread fascinating and informative.The level of discussion is far above most other web sites that use this forum.I agree with patiodog and bobsmyth that intercousre most likely did occur but without offspring.I don't have much to bring to the biological debate but I do have a question.How does such a successful species fail?And in fact,is our own species foredoomed?
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:21 am
mabon52 wrote:
How does such a successful species fail?


An excellent question, that...
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bobsmyth
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:36 am
if they call you a neanderthal
I didn't suggest that they could't but wouldn't. I certainly don't think they had all the encumbrances that today's people in the choices they made i.e. religion, social standing, education but they would find each other unappealing therefore undesirable.

As to species, we are the dominant species on earth and our own worst enemies. Wouldn't you think by now as the dominant and brightest species we would have learned not to kill each other. We have had world leaders practice genocide. What's to stop them being all inclusive so that everyone goes.

I'm not morbid so I don't think this will happen. This poor earth has been treated with blatant disregard by its inhabitants. The optimists in society still hope we'll grow up.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:39 am
Re: if they call you a neanderthal
bobsmyth wrote:
The optimists in society still hope we'll grow up.


Or go quietly, without taking everything else with us... Wink
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:41 am
I think it's likewise fascinating that, biological compatibility aside, perhaps Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal thought the other too ugly to fool around with.

There simply must've been some interspecies rape occurring; which lends credence to the theory that an egg couldn't be fertilized.
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steissd
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:49 am
Patiodog wrote:
...if they were gametically incompatible (that is, fertilization was impossible) they could do all the wild thing they wanted without producing offspring.

If they were gametically incompatible, this means that Neanderthalers (the ancient ones, of course, and not some of the BRD citizens) belonged to another biologic species. Maybe, they were not people at all, but some advanced species of tail-less apes?
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bobsmyth
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:50 am
if they call you a neanderthal
The possibilty of rape exists. We've all seen images of a caveman with a club dragging a woman off to his cave. If the woman was repugnant to him I'm afraid his other club may be less potent.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:52 am
I'm sure I saw a Neanderthal walking around in a suit in NYC. Heavy forehead, low-slung jaw, long arms, mono-eyebrow....
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:53 am
I agree, PDiddie, that "attractiveness" or lack thereof would not be a complete barrier to any interspecies fooling around. Even if we apply modern cognitive tendencies (which is probably not useful, in terms of how Neanderthals/ Cro-Magnons actually thought), there would be several categories where interspecies mating (ahem) might happen; rape being foremost, then simple slot a/ tab b logistics (do you think anyone finds cows sexually attractive, per se?) to an unattractive and thereby shunned member of "attractive" group being attracted to relatively attractive member of the "unattractive" group.

Etc., etc.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:53 am
bobsmyth, rape has very, very little to do with attraction.
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bobsmyth
 
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Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:57 am
if they call you a neanderthal
Good point, Sozobe. I remember a query once asked of what the difference was between a dog and a fox. Answer is ten beers.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:03 pm
steissd wrote:
Maybe, they were not people at all, but some advanced species of tail-less apes?


I certainly wouldn't deny it, since that is exactly what I think we are.
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