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AMAZING: Alien life *possibly* found!

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 10:19 am
Excuse me-

I just saw this from littlek-

Quote:
Spendius, you think that proof of alien life would prove ID?


Apologies littlek. It must have slipped out of sight.

The answer is No. Nothing will ever prove ID. It is a faith. It has nothing to do with Creationism in a literal sense.

Nothing will ever disprove ID either.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 10:52 am
stuh505 wrote:
Rather, it is the spontaneous part of your comment that I disagree with, because this does not show anything about the potential for life to arise spontaneously (assuming that the article is in fact true). For all we know such an organism could have been assembled by hand by workers in China, you don't KNOW how long it took for this life form to be created.


certainly hope it wasn't assembled in China; at the very least that would raise troubling questions about how it wound up in rainfall in India, although i suppose that would explain the red pigmentation. Razz

maybe spontaneous was a poorly chosen word. what i meant was something like arising from randomly occuring chemical reactions without any supernatural agency involved, or abiogenesis, to use a technical term i was trying to avoid using.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 11:28 am
spendius wrote:
Quote:
Spendius, you think that proof of alien life would prove ID?


The answer is No. Nothing will ever prove ID. It is a faith. It has nothing to do with Creationism in a literal sense.

Nothing will ever disprove ID either.


but alien life that's viable on earth, yet uses processes radically different from the terrestrial counterparts, would raise questions in my mind about ID, such as, why should there be 2 different designs by one designer?
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 11:48 am
Quote:
maybe spontaneous was a poorly chosen word. what i meant was something like arising from randomly occuring chemical reactions without any supernatural agency involved, or abiogenesis, to use a technical term i was trying to avoid using.


There is no evidence at this time supporting the claim that this cell, if that's what it is, is more likely to be assembled by random chance than a terrestrial unicellular organism! Therefore, it does not demonstrate, in any way shape or form, how life might evolve without a supernatural agent. That it lacks DNA changes nothing, since we don't know the mechanism by which it reproduces (if it does), because this mechanism could theoretically be a billion times more complicated and unlikely and more advanced than DNA...

Quote:
but alien life that's viable on earth, yet uses processes radically different from the terrestrial counterparts, would raise questions in my mind about ID, such as, why should there be 2 different designs by one designer?


Of course, if you think about ID, it makes no sense. But you're not supposed to think about it, that's the whole point of 'faith'.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 12:05 pm
stuh wrote-

Quote:
Of course, if you think about ID, it makes no sense. But you're not supposed to think about it, that's the whole point of 'faith'.


ID makes sense to the extent that it offers a possible explanation of first causes which might satisfy an enquiring mind enough to remain sane about mysteries one personally feels that science will never explain such as art and science itself in the Faustian project. I'm not fully convinced by the materialist theory. It only explains why I like tits but not why I like them so much. Only a fiendish,tormenting intelligence could have done that I think.

Intelligent design is Creationism's deadliest enemy.They'll see off atheists easy.They can tire them out and aggravate them beyond endurance.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 12:12 pm
sure, there's no evidence of self-assembly. i'm just speculating about probability. since DNA is already improbable, at least given the current understanding of biochemistry, a more complicated mechanism should be less probable. but all bets are off if design is involved.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 12:54 pm
yitwail,

personally I'm a fan of the autocatalytic set theory. Makes perfect sense to me.

spendius,

Quote:
It only explains why I like tits but not why I like them so much.


yeah ok... Rolling Eyes

I think you meant 'that you like tits, but not why' although at present it's a little funnier.

Anyway, I'm sure you can make a better case than that, because present theory does a very good job of explaining why you like tits so much.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 01:18 pm
This material is quite resilient, does not decay over time, reproduces and thrives at temperatures above 800 degreees F. This substance would be very comfortable on Venus!
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 01:28 pm
stuh-

I presume you mean some version of the "preferred pathways" theory. I don't buy that. It smacks of incest for a start. And rabbit runs, which are paths so worn by preferences that they are visible, become dangerous as well as unchallenging.

That theory also leads to the idea that only one sort of tit has any effect on the autonomic energising function which is something of an unnecessary limititation.

And it ignores entirely the motivating intelligence of the owner of the tits which is not be underestimated IMHAHO.

But I am interested in any ideas you may have in this area of scientific research.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 01:46 pm
NickFun,

I can see where you're going with that, but don't forget that there's basically no way for something from Venus to get to Earth, especially not if it came from a comet! But maybe this junk is happily raining all over Venus too Very Happy

spendius,

I give thanks for your visiting to us our dimension and greatly sharing such knowledge with us.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 01:50 pm
spendius wrote:

Nothing will ever disprove ID either.


Assuming we eliminate science and common sense I would consider this statement true.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 01:53 pm
s505, read up on autocatalytic sets a bit. sounds like the biochemical version of a roomful of monkeys with typewriters. Razz (which isn't to say that it can't happen)
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 02:06 pm
Nope.

The monkey typewriter experiment is much more analogous to the idea of DNA spontaneously coming together. In both cases, you have a long series of some length N, raised to some constant power P.

N^P

It is easy to see that with VERY small numbers the problem becomes intractable and given any number of billions of years, the monkeys won't produce Shakespeare and neither will the DNA assemble itself.

On the other hand, autocatalytic set theory provides has statistics on it's advantage, so that only a relatively short period of time is required to gaurantee the solution to be found.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 02:16 pm
stuh-

The Creationists could use that idea. A catalyst which suddenly produced self consciousness and intelligence a few thousand years ago and before which time these issues didn't exist. Nothing can exist without the words to describe it and the catalyst caused the words to appear and in the fullness of time fossils to be hunted down resulting in theories which deny their very birth pangs.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 03:47 pm
s505, is autocatalytic set theory analogous to a roomful of monkeys producing some collection of literature, not necessarily Shakespeare? in the case of literature, many other collections exist, but in the case of life, the protein/DNA/RNA set is the only known example, unless the red cells of India prove to be the real McCoy. so far, no one has created in the lab a self-replicating autocatalytic set, am i right?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 05:40 pm
Flaubert got close.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 06:48 pm
Quote:
s505, is autocatalytic set theory analogous to a roomful of monkeys producing some collection of literature, not necessarily Shakespeare? in the case of literature, many other collections exist, but in the case of life, the protein/DNA/RNA set is the only known example, unless the red cells of India prove to be the real McCoy. so far, no one has created in the lab a self-replicating autocatalytic set, am i right?


No, because you you can have any number of finite solutions and as long as the problem is still growing exponentially, having more possible solutions is not going to make any practical difference in the probability of finding one of those solutions.

The proper analogy would be something like this:

Make a list of words from an alien language and hope that the monkeys are able to produce just a single word from your list. However, there is a catch-- you have removed most of the keys from their alien typewriters. But while they are typing, you go about replacing the keys on their typewriters, and each time you replace a key you also add a new alien word to the list. Moreover, in this alien language there is an infinite number of letters, so the odds just get better.

As far as evidence goes for the theory, the answer is yes and no. Hand calculations and computer simulations show the sets to develope reliably with near certainty. Also, many autocatalytic sets have been identified by researchers. However, I think they have had trouble creating them on purpose, and verifying that their probability of occuring is as predicted.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2006 09:12 pm
The last I heard on this was back on March 6th when they announced that they were running more detailed tests on this stuff to see if *really* has no DNA or not (previous tests were inconclusive).

Is there any information on this dated *after* march of this year? Are there any confirmed results of the DNA tests they were going to run?
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