Best American Fiction of the Last 25 Years?

Beloved is a political polemic. It has gained ground among feminists, Race Carders, and the pollitically correct.

Joe Nation apparently thinks it stands as great literature.

One page of Shakespeare which, unfortunately, is unread, is worth more than the entire Beloved book.

What Mr. Nation obviously does not know is that if you put all of the worth while literature one MUST read in order to be well read and conversant with Western Civilization's gems, even if you were twenty years old and read incessantly, you could not reach the level Beloved would be placed at.

Joe Nation apparently buys the thesis of Morrison. Whites are devils who enslaved blacks and killed millions of them. What he does not know and does not wish to learn is that Historical Research has found that Black People who were slaves lived as well as white people in the North who worked in factories and much better than 90% of the people in Europe.

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Christ!! Would you get your paw off the submit button!! Wait for it. It will load.!!!!!!

And stop peddling that tripe as Historical Research (capital letters no less) until you can tell me what the psychic price of slavery was. The worker in the Northern factory might have been oppressed by his bosses but he didn't go to sleep at night wondering if his master's would trade him, or his thirteen year old son, away for a load of lumber. Slavery's cost is not just in dollars and cents, it's in the tears it made in the fabric of humanity.

The mill owners paid little heed to the health and welfare of workers, where from sprang the international union movement, but they recognized those workers as human beings. Slaves, living, breathing, thinking individuals, were provided only that which kept them able to work and breed, the same as any other animal owned by the slaveholder without regard for how such conditions made them feel. What other human condition is akin to slavery?

To compare it to even the most miserable lives of free men is folly and smacks as the same "Tweren't so bad as all that." bullshoi that Mississippi historians have been trying to press into the history books since Reconstruction.

Joe(not buying)Nation

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Mr. Nation- Have you ever heard of the book--"Roll, Jordan, Roll" by Eugene D.Genovese? It is a very highly praised book. It is accepted as a master work by Historians. If you doubt this, check it out. Dr. Genovese knows forty six times more about Slavery than you ever will know. He has devoted his life to studying it.

Instead of saying that your ignorance of slavery leads you to the grotesque comment-Not buying it--Read what the experty( not Joe Nation) but the expert, Dr. Eugene Genovese says in his book---

"Reviewing the conditions of the workers and peasants of Europe, Raimondo Luraghim the learned Italian Historian who has written a detailed study of the United States during this period, concludes that the slaves fared as well, in material terms, as a substantial porion of the workers and peasants of Western Europe and 'CERTAINLY BETTER" than the mass of the Russian, Hungarian, Polish and even Italian Peasants."

P. 62- Genovese

What was the diet like?

P. 63_Genovese

"Masters usually provided a half pound of pork per day for each adult"

WHo much meat did Europeans eat?

P. 63- Genovese--The English Rural Laborers as well as the French Workers and Peasants rarely tasted meat more than once a week in the mid ninteenth century.

Now, Mr. Nation- either show that Dr.Genovese is wrong with his thesis that European workers were worse off than American Slaves or cash it in!!!!

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Joe Nation wrote:

Christ!! Would you get your paw off the submit button!! Wait for it. It will load.!!!!!!

And stop peddling that tripe as Historical Research (capital letters no less) until you can tell me what the psychic price of slavery was. The worker in the Northern factory might have been oppressed by his bosses but he didn't go to sleep at night wondering if his master's would trade him, or his thirteen year old son, away for a load of lumber. Slavery's cost is not just in dollars and cents, it's in the tears it made in the fabric of humanity.

The mill owners paid little heed to the health and welfare of workers, where from sprang the international union movement, but they recognized those workers as human beings. Slaves, living, breathing, thinking individuals, were provided only that which kept them able to work and breed, the same as any other animal owned by the slaveholder without regard for how such conditions made them feel. What other human condition is akin to slavery?

To compare it to even the most miserable lives of free men is folly and smacks as the same "Tweren't so bad as all that." bullshoi that Mississippi historians have been trying to press into the history books since Reconstruction.

Joe(not buying)Nation

Bernardagrotto having proven once for all by that nonsensical polemic that he has nothing to contribute to any literary discussion (I kept hoping something might be lurking under all the bullshit, hence I kept digging, but clearly polemic is all he knows. Amusing given his condemnation of any but his own) I, for one, shall ignore anything else he says on this thread.

So....any comments from anyone sane with regard to the thread topic?

I gather nobody else likes/has read "Fugitive Pieces"?

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How typical of DLowan and the rest of the left wing. When they are given irrefutable evidence from a peer approved world renown Historian that American Slaves were at least as well off as Northern FActory workers in the USA and better off than most of the peasants in Europe, they cannot rebut or respond.

I will restate--The twisted and portentious story of the sufferings of a ghost and her family is a pernicious piece of race carder prooaganda praised by the left wing feminist race carding Politically Correct scribblers.

Dlowan( who apparently has never read Eugene Genovese) Joe Nation who incorrectly calls Eugene Genovese a Mississippi writer( such profound ignorance) cannot put the lie to his statements.

Because of that, Ms. Morrison's novel ought to be put either in the category of Science- Fiction or stand with the classics of Danielle Steel.

Ms. Dlowan and Mr. Nation( who, of course, may be able to read nothing more difficult than the Black Dialect written by Morrison and thus think her writing is equal to Shakespeare) have a perfect right to read Morrison.
They should be aware, however, that in the scheme of Western LIterature, Morrison could not make a pimple on the hide of The Illiad.

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How typical of DLowan and the rest of the left wing. When they are given irrefutable evidence from a peer approved world renown Historian that American Slaves were at least as well off as Northern FActory workers in the USA and better off than most of the peasants in Europe, they cannot rebut or respond.

I will restate--The twisted and portentious story of the sufferings of a ghost and her family is a pernicious piece of race carder prooaganda praised by the left wing feminist race carding Politically Correct scribblers.

Dlowan( who apparently has never read Eugene Genovese) Joe Nation who incorrectly calls Eugene Genovese a Mississippi writer( such profound ignorance) cannot put the lie to his statements.

Because of that, Ms. Morrison's novel ought to be put either in the category of Science- Fiction or stand with the classics of Danielle Steel.

Ms. Dlowan and Mr. Nation( who, of course, may be able to read nothing more difficult than the Black Dialect written by Morrison and thus think her writing is equal to Shakespeare) have a perfect right to read Morrison.
They should be aware, however, that in the scheme of Western LIterature, Morrison could not make a pimple on the hide of The Illiad.

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How typical of DLowan and the rest of the left wing. When they are given irrefutable evidence from a peer approved world renown Historian that American Slaves were at least as well off as Northern FActory workers in the USA and better off than most of the peasants in Europe, they cannot rebut or respond.

I will restate--The twisted and portentious story of the sufferings of a ghost and her family is a pernicious piece of race carder prooaganda praised by the left wing feminist race carding Politically Correct scribblers.

Dlowan( who apparently has never read Eugene Genovese) Joe Nation who incorrectly calls Eugene Genovese a Mississippi writer( such profound ignorance) cannot put the lie to his statements.

Because of that, Ms. Morrison's novel ought to be put either in the category of Science- Fiction or stand with the classics of Danielle Steel.

Ms. Dlowan and Mr. Nation( who, of course, may be able to read nothing more difficult than the Black Dialect written by Morrison and thus think her writing is equal to Shakespeare) have a perfect right to read Morrison.
They should be aware, however, that in the scheme of Western LIterature, Morrison could not make a pimple on the hide of The Illiad.

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How typical of DLowan and the rest of the left wing. When they are given irrefutable evidence from a peer approved world renown Historian that American Slaves were at least as well off as Northern FActory workers in the USA and better off than most of the peasants in Europe, they cannot rebut or respond.

I will restate--The twisted and portentious story of the sufferings of a ghost and her family is a pernicious piece of race carder prooaganda praised by the left wing feminist race carding Politically Correct scribblers.

Dlowan( who apparently has never read Eugene Genovese) Joe Nation who incorrectly calls Eugene Genovese a Mississippi writer( such profound ignorance) cannot put the lie to his statements.

Because of that, Ms. Morrison's novel ought to be put either in the category of Science- Fiction or stand with the classics of Danielle Steel.

Ms. Dlowan and Mr. Nation( who, of course, may be able to read nothing more difficult than the Black Dialect written by Morrison and thus think her writing is equal to Shakespeare) have a perfect right to read Morrison.
They should be aware, however, that in the scheme of Western LIterature, Morrison could not make a pimple on the hide of The Illiad.

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How typical of DLowan and the rest of the left wing. When they are given irrefutable evidence from a peer approved world renown Historian that American Slaves were at least as well off as Northern FActory workers in the USA and better off than most of the peasants in Europe, they cannot rebut or respond.

I will restate--The twisted and portentious story of the sufferings of a ghost and her family is a pernicious piece of race carder prooaganda praised by the left wing feminist race carding Politically Correct scribblers.

Dlowan( who apparently has never read Eugene Genovese) Joe Nation who incorrectly calls Eugene Genovese a Mississippi writer( such profound ignorance) cannot put the lie to his statements.

Because of that, Ms. Morrison's novel ought to be put either in the category of Science- Fiction or stand with the classics of Danielle Steel.

Ms. Dlowan and Mr. Nation( who, of course, may be able to read nothing more difficult than the Black Dialect written by Morrison and thus think her writing is equal to Shakespeare) have a perfect right to read Morrison.
They should be aware, however, that in the scheme of Western LIterature, Morrison could not make a pimple on the hide of The Illiad.

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(ptooey)

You're a funny little man, BernardR, but you no longer amuse me.

I never said Genovese was a Mississippi writer. I said that his opinion sounded like the same kind of crap that Southern-slanted historians have been putting out for years. You know, the kind who believe Nathan Bedford Forrest was a hero. (ptooey) Of course, Eugene wasn't trying to say that slavery wasn't bad, he was trying to show that being a worker under capitalism was AS BAD as slavery. (He was a Marxist back then, now he has found Jesus, so maybe there will be some revisions to come along with the visions. Maybe he'll see the same fantasies as you.)

Meanwhile, if you are going to quote somebody quoting somebody it would help if you spell the name correctly, it's Luraghi (no m on the end) and he is a headcase who desperately wants to show the Southern Cause as the righteous path.

For those of you elsewhere in the world, you should know that there is a major cottage industry in the USA to reshape the documented history of the Civil War into something like a cross between the fall of heaven's angels and the lost civilization of Atlantis. (Maybe it really was AtlanTA)
According to them, the Mississippians et al I referred to earlier, the South was merely minding its own business and slavery was just a two hundred year old passing fad that wasn't as bad as some would imply. No, it was the bad Yankees who came down and ruined paradise. The white man was reduced from his Godgiven place as the supreme head over all humanity. (ptooey)(ptooey)(ptooey)

Knowing now that you throw yourself behind the likes of these, and re-reading your 'opinions' regarding Ms. Morrison, I have a better understanding of the likes of you, BernardR.

I shall scroll pass anything you say from now on, no matter how many times it is posted, this is a first for me, but I really find you and your opinions disgusting and beyond redemption. Btw, posting multiple times as you have been doing is a violation of the TOS. Don't do it again.

Have a nice life, BernardR.

Joe Nation

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For those of you elsewhere in the world, you should know that there is a major cottage industry in the USA to reshape the documented history of the Civil War into something like a cross between the fall of heaven's angels and the lost civilization of Atlantis. (Maybe it really was AtlanTA)

Really? Like the holocaust denier/minimizer industry?

Is it a long term one?

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BernardR wrote:

Poor deluded PLain Ol Me- You cannot make converts out of people who do not have the necessary insight and knowledge to understand.

I do not write for people like you. You are lost and beyond the pale. How could a High School Teacher who has taught for years have any real insight?

quote]

How odd! Bernie/massagatto recently posted that he taught in the inner city (supposedly of Chicago) for five years. Yet he also posted that the teaching profession is for the weak minded.

Besides, I have not taught high school for years and years. I have been a journalist, a welfare case worker and a mom.

Wouldn't teaching clue the teacher into human nature?

Oh, and bernie/masso, I do not believe that you taught in the inner city anywhere. The kids would have torched your car because you have too often exhibited an unforgiving racism here. I am certain the lack of self-control that marks all of your posts would mean that you would insult your own students.

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BernardR wrote:

Mr. Nation- Have you ever heard of the book--"Roll, Jordan, Roll" by Eugene D.Genovese? It is a very highly praised book. It is accepted as a master work by Historians. If you doubt this, check it out. Dr. Genovese knows forty six times more about Slavery than you ever will know. He has devoted his life to studying it.

quote]

Hey, Beloved is also a "very highly praised book." This is just more of the bernie/masso style of scanning in tons of stuff to stop a thread.

Why do you hate communication so much?

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dlowan wrote:

For those of you elsewhere in the world, you should know that there is a major cottage industry in the USA to reshape the documented history of the Civil War into something like a cross between the fall of heaven's angels and the lost civilization of Atlantis. (Maybe it really was AtlanTA)

Really? Like the holocaust denier/minimizer industry?

Is it a long term one?

It is like the holocaust denier group. It actually began about 10 minutes after Lee surrendered and continues. The biggest difference is the supporters of the sacred south began writing as a weapon against the truth.

When I heard John Kerry the other day, he asked, rhetorically, what it takes to make a debate. His answer is one flat earth person in the room.

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Plain Ol Me reminds me that I taught in the Inner City. She does not know that I was also a Principal of a school in an inner city and know far more about Black people than she will ever learn. She also does not know that I left the Public School arena for Private School work mainly because there were too many people like her around--people who read Danielle Steel and think they are well read.

Beloved was indeed highly praised-by the feminists, race-carders, and the Politically Correct who hate our society.

Geneovese's book- Roll Jordan Roll is NOT FICTION. It is Historical facts and it is also highly praised.

The factual shows that the phony fiction is indeed phony.

Joe Nation did not know where I got me quote from Beloved--"SIXTY MILLION OR MORE" It is he and Dlowan who did not read the book--There in the frontspiece staring an unbelieving reader in the face is the idiotic comment--SIXTY MILLION OR MORE. It refers, of course, to the UNPROVEN idiocy that Sixty Million Black people died on the ships to the USA. This is, toanyone who knows about the time line concerning slavery, the ships that crossed the Atlantic and the necessity of keeping the slaves alive before landing, an absrudity and just shows that Morrison, a race carder supreme is writing a political polemic.

Joe Nation and Dlowan( Not you, Plain Ol Me--You aren't smart enough to read even a piece of dreck like Beloved--) did not read the book--If theydid and did not react to sentences like--"that anybody white could take your whole self for anything that came to mind. Not just work, kill or maim you but dirty you. Dirty you so bad that you couldn't like yourself anymore. DIrty you so bad you forgot who you were and couldn't think it up."

What tendentious crap!!!! If Morrison is at all educated, she knew, when she wrote this self serving nonsense, that Blacks in Slavery were at least as well off as Northern workers, and that Blacks were much better off than most Peasants in Europe. If she cared about any kind of verisimulitude, she would have managed to indicate that in her book, but she is a polemicist and a propagandist who sullies Literature.

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Plain Ol Me reminds me that I taught in the Inner City. She does not know that I was also a Principal of a school in an inner city and know far more about Black people than she will ever learn. She also does not know that I left the Public School arena for Private School work mainly because there were too many people like her around--people who read Danielle Steel and think they are well read.

Beloved was indeed highly praised-by the feminists, race-carders, and the Politically Correct who hate our society.

Geneovese's book- Roll Jordan Roll is NOT FICTION. It is Historical facts and it is also highly praised.

The factual shows that the phony fiction is indeed phony.

Joe Nation did not know where I got me quote from Beloved--"SIXTY MILLION OR MORE" It is he and Dlowan who did not read the book--There in the frontspiece staring an unbelieving reader in the face is the idiotic comment--SIXTY MILLION OR MORE. It refers, of course, to the UNPROVEN idiocy that Sixty Million Black people died on the ships to the USA. This is, toanyone who knows about the time line concerning slavery, the ships that crossed the Atlantic and the necessity of keeping the slaves alive before landing, an absrudity and just shows that Morrison, a race carder supreme is writing a political polemic.

Joe Nation and Dlowan( Not you, Plain Ol Me--You aren't smart enough to read even a piece of dreck like Beloved--) did not read the book--If theydid and did not react to sentences like--"that anybody white could take your whole self for anything that came to mind. Not just work, kill or maim you but dirty you. Dirty you so bad that you couldn't like yourself anymore. DIrty you so bad you forgot who you were and couldn't think it up."

What tendentious crap!!!! If Morrison is at all educated, she knew, when she wrote this self serving nonsense, that Blacks in Slavery were at least as well off as Northern workers, and that Blacks were much better off than most Peasants in Europe. If she cared about any kind of verisimulitude, she would have managed to indicate that in her book, but she is a polemicist and a propagandist who sullies Literature.

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BernardR wrote:

I post for Okie, Finn, Ticomaya, Asherman and George Ob1- People who have more brains individually than the whole group of left wingers on these threads.

Then why don't you confine your posts to the threads they participate in? I haven't seen any of those luminaries in this one. Your relentless drum beat and nasty attacks on other posters are totally inappropriate to a discussion like this...

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I bet Possum got his doctorate for number of times he watched the Disney film, Song of the South.

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Relentless Drum Beat and Nasty Attacks, sir? I am polite. I never call people turds as Mr. Setanta and Mr. Blatham do.

Are you afraid to post in a venue where everyone does not slavishly agree with you?

Are you of the group who thinls that Reverend Farrakhan's homilies should be preserved for posterity?

Do you equate the blusterings of Al Franken with the sublimiites of Emerson?

Are you convinced that Jesse Jackson is one of the greatest statesmen in the History of the United States?

If you do, but you do not wish to hear protestations, you are in the wrong venue.

I will hold that venemous literature can do as much, if not more, to destroy the bonds holding our country together than any Senator declaiming from the house tops.

You may be aware, Mr. D'Artagnan. that when Harriet Beecher Stowe, the author of UNCLE TOM'S CABIN, visited the White House, President Lincoln allegedly said to her--So you are the lady who started this Civil War-

If you don't know that venemous and distorted literature can harm our country, Mr. D'artagnan, I respectfully suggest that you read up on the subject>

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BernardR wrote:

You may be aware, Mr. D'Artagnan. that when Harriet Beecher Stowe, the author of UNCLE TOM'S CABIN, visited the White House, President Lincoln allegedly said to her--So you are the lady who started this Civil War-

If you don't know that venemous and distorted literature can harm our country, Mr. D'artagnan, I respectfully suggest that you read up on the subject>

Lincoln meant that as a compliment; I suspect you think otherwise. Are you really suggesting that Stowe was wrong to present slavery negatively in her novel?

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