Affirmative Action

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"I am not a representative of blacks, I cannot appoint myself their leader, I should therefore not take anything directed at me as something directed at all blacks for I am but one".

Is that you talking? Because I'm still trying to figure out how you know so much about how blacks think to we you are more in touch with their views.

Anyway substantiate and don't just assert!

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the majority of what you say is of no importance to the majority of the world, black or otherwise.

Ah... A link to a relevant poll expressing that the majority of black people are in disgreement with me would suffice.

You can assert anything.... Be a man and back up your statements! :wink:

Also.... were did I say I "represent" or that I am "representative" of what blacks think. Your statement has no basis. It just more of the type of stupid reflex, face saving things people like you - those who have weak and poorly constructed argument or positions - say to reassure yourself and make yourself feel good.

Technically, your statement is very awkward. Being black, I can't help but represent them, technically. Besides the fact that I have NEVER made any such claims and the only ones are born of your face-saving mechanism, I am acutely aware of who agrees with me. And your petty attempts to convince of something that is irrelevant because it is not an issue or claim I have made, is just a result of your wishful thinking - hoping that few black people think like me and will more willing coalesce to your mindset.

You telling me what black people think can only serve the purpose of reassuring yourself that there aren't that many that oppose your superficial ideas.... I don't need to be informed of what black people think and if I am the only one who think like I do then what? Am I suppose to feel ashamed or something?

You need to use your child psychology on someone it will work...
I don't care what you think or why you think it. And, frankly, I don't care whether I speak for black people or am (in your superficial opinion) a representative or am representative of black people.

You should know that numbers of this or that have no influence on what I think. Again, you only SPECULATE (rather than show substantiated proof) about that to reassure yourself. But, maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure you have long, detailed and thorough discussions with blacks every day from all walks of life from a ideological persuasions.... and that's where you ascertain these ideas. Rolling Eyes

http://www.harvardmag.com/alt/03mj/images/reparations.jpg

I don't resort to innane assertions and conjecture. But by what's apparent... you do! Embarrassed

Start making points that are germane to what I have said and stay within the structural context...

FYI... I don't care what you think about reparations. Whether you think it is about my sense of entitlement or however you characterize it.
Your opinion on it is irrelevant! Of NO Import! Of NO consequence and has NO bearing!

I won't discuss it with you because that would be pretending that I regard you as someone who can carry an intelligent discussion on it. Our whole exchange and this little buzzword/catch phrase - sense of entitlement - is evidence that you can't even hold your pants up!

And you got to stop kidding yourself about having common ground with black people in any real sense when you throw out terms like that. That would be on par with perhaps throwing out terms like white supremacist. You may very well subjectively think it applies but as you acknowledge about WS a person should know how such labels will be received.

But it's just funny.....
You'll have to share with me the website that has the Top 100 Things To Say To Blacks When Discussing Race.... because it sure seems like I hear the same ole tired language verbatim.

And how you expect me to think that you can arrive at common ground with black people thinking stuff like that is like Noah saying he has common ground with white people who saying the things he says.

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When you get excited your posts are less choherent.

From the above I see that you are still harping on the same old things:

1) An assumption that I am not black (and it has now gone from "undisclosed" to "white")
2) A claim that my opinion is of little relevance.

And my answers continue to be:

1) Your assumptions are the source of great mirth
2) The relevance of my opinion is equal to the relevance of yours

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Noah's Hard Left Hook! wrote:

Ah... A link to a relevant poll expressing that the majority of black people are in disgreement with me would suffice.

You can assert anything.... Be a man and back up your statements! :wink:

I did back it up. And we are talking about slightly different things, as usual. Very Happy

Let me give you a hand. You are saying that the opinion you express is an opinion of greater relevance to a segment of the population.

The words with which you couch this meaningless claim is such that it can be interpreted as you saying that your opinion is relevant (without qualifying what it is, simply that it's yours).

My response has been:

Your opinion is of no greater relevance than mine. You simply feel more entitled.

Now, if you want to say that the opinion you express is more relevant, feel free. It's still a meaningless expression of self-importance that I'll continue to poke fun at.

Yours in mirth,

Brother Craven

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The scroll button on my mouse is on fire.

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Noah,

I see that you edited your post to make it decidedly different from the one that I'd responded to. That's pretty low.

In any case you are still raging about the irrelevant opinion part. That's still funny.

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Craven,

Let's consult the poll!!

Oh! I see a mere 67% of African-Americans are in favor of Reparations. Why that's hardly a majority of black people... Damn it sucks being in the minority opinion on something... Embarrassed

And Gosh Darn It!! Some 96% of whites who are against it must be pulling a hell of a lot of sway for there only to be a little, its-see, bits-see, minute, microscopic 67% of Black who do.

Those white opinions are way too relevant to those blacks!
You're right Craven, white opinion and/or your opinion in opposition to reparations is as relevant and I guess more relevant than what you have said!
Rolling Eyes

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"White opinions"?

LOL You're a riot. So I have "white opinions" and you have "black opinions"?

Well, free free to think that way. It's far too ethnocentric for me. <shrugs>

Yours in mirth,

Brother Craven

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Quote:

Let me give you a hand. You are saying that the opinion you express is an opinion of greater relevance to a segment of the population.

NO! That's what you are saying.

I said your opinion about reparations......... in the context of BLACK PEOPLE WHO FAVOR REPARATIONS is irrelevant. I never stipulated as to what I thought mattered. I don't think it does. Blacks would formulate their own opinions as they whether I say something relevant or not.

Later on, well after you insisted with this idea of yours about me not being "representative"... (another baseless assertion) I intimated that in my internet travels that the black people who participated in forms wherein I articulated what I thought about reparations didn't seem to have a lot of objections to what I had to say and some of them actually thought I made good articulations.

BTW, I don't think any one msg board represent a majority of anything but the overwhelming number of blacks I've encountered there and in real life have no problem or disagreement with the issue itself, though there is predictable a variety of opinion on implementation. That would be a classic example of Craven's Common Ground! (But notice the one point that is agreed upon is definitely less vague.)

Craven, the only edit I did was to add the poll and website link. If I changed any of the content it was to correct typos which I don't think I did.

Razz

TRY AGAIN!!!

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That's simply not true. A large amount of that post was added in the edit. But hey, it's not a big deal to me, it's just low. <shrugs>

I do want to have a serious discussion with you on a new thread though. It would be of very limited scope and I just want to listen and ask a few questions.

The topic would be reparations and implementation. I want to hear what your precise ideas on reparations are and am not interested in discussing the validity of the idea, just the implementation to see what you have in mind.

Interested?

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Craven de Kere wrote:

"White opinions"?

LOL You're a riot. So I have "white opinions" and you have "black opinions"?

Well, free free to think that way. It's far too ethnocentric for me. <shrugs>

Yours in mirth,

Brother Craven

Saving face??? Embarrassed

Obfuscating??? Embarrassed

Having problems with Cognitive Dissonance??? Embarrassed

Or just realizing your shell game is over???

(I'm sure there's a 1-800-number for those problems. lol)

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POLL... since you were soooooo enamored with telling what the majority of black people thought and how I am outside of the mainstream of black opinions (I assume in general) and on the particular topic of Reparations.

Don't waste your time on another post addressing my "at least elementary intelligent" points on anything else. Educate me more on reparations...

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! Laughing

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My great-great-great grandfather came to this country in 1784. He was a white land owner in the region that would eventually become West Virginia. He migrated here from Germany. There is no trace of any slave ownership in any way shape or form...Somewhere on my mom's side I have a black grand-mother, but I am not sure how far back, who was a descendant of slaves.

The point of this?

I am a guy living in America and I do not want to see one cent of my tax money to be paid to anyone in reparation of anything. My family did not own slaves, did not ship slaves, did not market slaves.

-One guys opinion, now back to the show...

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Noah's Hard Left Hook! wrote:

Saving face??? Obfuscating??? Having problems with Cognitive Dissonance???

No.

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Or just realizing your shell game is over???

As long as you are here my game will continue. You an' me are like peas in a pod.

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(I'm sure there's a 1-800-number for those problems. lol)

I bow to your superior knowledge on help lines.

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Don't waste your time on another post addressing my "at least elementary intelligent" points on anything else. Educate me more on reparations...

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

Sure thing boss.

If you are discriminated against you can file a lawsuit and attempt to collect reparations.

But anywho, I really think you can tell me more on that subject that I can tell you. I want to know about your ideas of implementation. If I start a thread will you join?

Yours in interest,

Craven "white opinions" de Kere

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Craven de Kere wrote:

I do want to have a serious discussion with you on a new thread though. It would be of very limited scope and I just want to listen and ask a few questions.

The topic would be reparations and implementation. I want to hear what your precise ideas on reparations are and am not interested in discussing the validity of the idea, just the implementation to see what you have in mind.

Interested?

NO! What did I tell you? I have no interest in doing that and definitely not for you. I feel insulted by all your "wild" accusations and that "intelligence" thing is getting to me..... Razz

I don't want to play with your anywhere else!
You're mean! Sad

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That's simply not true. A large amount of that post was added in the edit. But hey, it's not a big deal to me, it's just low. <shrugs>

Whether it's true or not, if anything I added on something (like I do most of the time while initially constructing) and hardly think that I altered the meaning or subtracted anything.

What's low is your avoidance of the salient point via the poll/image that directly contradicts what you have tried to say here. How bout you do the honorable thing an at least address the poll if not really be a man an at least admit that according to it you are/were dead wrong?

Now, once you stop taking thing personal and thereby skewing what it is you think you are hearing when I have repeated myself far too many times... then you can stop thinking that I ever said that my opinion is more important or more relevant than yours with or without the CONTEXT you keep avoiding.

And on the basis of who is aware of my opinions.... My internet thing shows that but that was never the point. Whether blacks are aware of what you think or not about reparations, your opinion is still irrelevant!

And, my comprehension and logically challenged, brother Craven... the opposite of that statement about your irrelevance is not a statement to promote mine. It is simply a statement about your irrelevance and that's it. And telling me I'm as irrelevant.... Well.... Okay! And????

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If I start a thread will you join?

NO! You just offended me again! Sad

You said as long as I'm here you'll be playing games!

I don't like games....

Laughing

Seriously, Craven.... if you can't man-up and honestly deal with this thread why do you think I would want to participate in a thread with you?
And, if you start a thread and I respond to it, especially by agreement, that would mean I think your opinion on it is relevant or at least worthy of a response which I absolute do not.... at least at this time with your present mentality.

I don't think your geniunely interested.... judging by this thread all you want to do is play games. That's why you intentionally:

[*] MIX UP PEOPLE'S (my) ARGUMENTS; and
[*] ATTRIBUTE THINGS TO ME THAT I DID NOT SAY.

Apparently, you can't hear me now so what makes you think I would waste my time and do such a favor by speak to you even more.

Crave.... I don't have time for more of your games.

"It's Low!" Rolling Eyes

That was a good one.... anything to save face and avoid the issue at hand.

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Noah's Hard Left Hook! wrote:

NO! What did I tell you? I have no interest in doing that and definitely not for you. I feel insulted by all your "wild" accusations and that "intelligence" thing is getting to me.....

I don't want to play with your anywhere else!
You're mean!

If you are serious, I apologize.

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What's low is your avoidance of the salient point via the poll/image that directly contradicts what you have tried to say here. How bout you do the honorable thing an at least address the poll if not really be a man an at least admit that according to it you are/were dead wrong?

Fine, you were dead wrong. You were wrong to think I was talking about whether your opinion is popular among blacks and continue to be wrong now.

I was very clear when telling you that we were talking about different things. I was clear when I explained to you that what I was talking about was whether you were a more "relevant" person to get an opinion from. Not whether your expressed opinion was more popular among blacks.

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Now, once you stop taking thing personal and thereby skewing what it is you think you are hearing when I have repeated myself far too many times... then you can stop thinking that I ever said that my opinion is more important or more relevant than yours with or without the CONTEXT you keep avoiding.

Noah, I don't take this personally. It's just mirth, as I have said.

And I already very clearly expressed that we were talking about two different things in the discussion about "relevance" of opinion.

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Whether blacks are aware of what you think or not about reparations, your opinion is still irrelevant!

Again, as is yours. ;-)

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And, my comprehension and logically challenged, brother Craven... the opposite of that statement about your irrelevance is not a statement to promote mine. It is simply a statement about your irrelevance and that's it. And telling me I'm as irrelevant.... Well.... Okay! And????

And nothing. It's simply perspective.

If my opinion is as irrelevant as yours you are harping on a meaningless point.

I've already said this to you. <shrugs>

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McGentrix wrote:

My great-great-great grandfather came to this country in 1784. He was a white land owner in the region that would eventually become West Virginia. He migrated here from Germany. There is no trace of any slave ownership in any way shape or form...Somewhere on my mom's side I have a black grand-mother, but I am not sure how far back, who was a descendant of slaves.

The point of this?

I am a guy living in America and I do not want to see one cent of my tax money to be paid to anyone in reparation of anything. My family did not own slaves, did not ship slaves, did not market slaves.

-One guys opinion, now back to the show...

Consult my comments on the National Debt thread!

Next!

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Noah's Hard Left Hook! wrote:

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If I start a thread will you join?

NO! You just offended me again!
You said as long as I'm here you'll be playing games!

I don't like games....

I've apologized if I have offended.

I did say I'd not take the discussion here seriously. But that's because it started with a fallacious premise aboiut Noah 1.

I have, several times, said I would discuss less trivial subjects with you seriously.

For example, I am willing to discuss MLK's speech with you, like I said, I know less than I should about the man.

I am also willing to listen to your ideas on reparations. I probably won't opine much (as it's polemic) but I have some questions.

If you do not wish to, that's fine. It's an earnest offer there for the taking should you change your mind.

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Seriously, Craven.... if you can't man-up and honestly deal with this thread why do you think I would want to participate in a thread with you?

Noah, I disagree with you in the characterization of me. If I agreed with your take I'd certainly "man-up".

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And, if you start a thread and I respond to it, especially by agreement, that would mean I think your opinion on it is relevant or at least worthy of a response which I absolute do not.... at least at this time with your present mentality.

Really Noah, merely responding to a thread and making an agreement is not a sanction of the individual. You take these things too seriously.

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I don't think your geniunely interested....

You are wrong. And you base this on several assumptions that are unfounded.

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Apparently, you can't hear me now so what makes you think I would waste my time and do such a favor by speak to you even more.

I cannot hear you. I can read what you write. If you think this is a waste of time you should, as I have suggested, cease to waste it.

And like I said, if you change your mind let me know.

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Fine, you were dead wrong. You were wrong to think I was talking about whether your opinion is popular among blacks and continue to be wrong now.

OMG!!!!!!!

Now your game is to lie and obfuscate and suggest you didn't say what you said and didn't mean what you did.

BTW, it doesn't matter whether you are black or white. Given your opinion is at odds with BLACKS THAT FAVOR REPARATIONS, black or white, for those blacks your opinion is of no consquence and is irrelevant - a non factor.

As for the absolute relevance of your opinion vs. my opinion on that topic.... hmmm.....

Well, if I'm one of those 67% or so... then I do factor in and in that sense what I think is obviously relevant. There would be no 67% if I was not apart of it. And back to my reference about other msg board and opinions I've shared on the issue... my thoughts have been ostenibly "relevant" to those who felt I articulated the issue well whereas those who shared your opposition using similar terms that you have, their thoughts were "irrelevant", perhaps because they (like you do here so often) couldn't articulate their position as well as I could. I dunno <*shug*> Laughing

Now to your game of dishonesty:

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Again, you do not represent blacks, that's just your inordinate sense of entitlement speaking.

Like I said, you are in no way a representative of blacks and thank goodness for that.

Frankly you do not speak for all blacks.
---------------------------------------------------
ADD ON:
African Americans are not a flock of sheep.
Many of them would see my goals as an improvement.
Some of the more ethnocentric militant types might not but they don't speak for blacks. No matter how much they try to hijack black issues they are just one voice like all of us.
----------------------------------------------------

Yeah! I can really see how that suggest that you were not trying to say my views were "unpopular"... (as opposed to yours) Rolling Eyes

I guess that's why you were confused and thought I - like you - was trying to claiming my view was more "relevant" than yours... you know... like PROJECTING! (your mentality onto me).... Such a sad affair.

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By the way, you can get "reparations" when you are discrminated against. Just file a law suit.

Okay Craven The Assumed Black/White/Polka Dot Man!
I'm sure that doesn't at all reflects your nationality.

And talk about assumptions... "wild" assumptions.... (well actually BS assumptions) Yours there is that my position regarding reparations is personally motivated as if my belief in it is based on "What's In It For Me!" You need to cut your ties with Alice. She has your mind twisted!

(That was what the whole ideology and intelligence thing was about...)

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"you all are simply defenders of white supremacy"

I won't quibble about whether that completely satisfies the "entire forum" doctrine, considering that the context could have been logically related to ALL those who were engaged in the debate. Nor will I say that I took your "entire" doctrine to mean a blanket statement that says any and every one who is a member here and participates in any of the forums... whether Politics, Philosophy or whatever. And I definitely won't show any concern for the specific time frame and, again, those who were actively participating/exchanging in the debate with him at the time....

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Okay... feel free to site the post that said ALL, EACH, EVERY - aka this ENTIRE - forum = white supremacist. I await you evidentiary post. - NHLH

All I asked you for was proof of your assertion! not a debate about whether it was true or not. So if it makes you feel good YOU WERE RIGHT.... Noah did use the word ALL.... whether he indicted the whole, entire forum as you said is very possibly an exaggeration. That is, if we are sticklers over words.

So, I'll grant you that unequivocally! You were right on that! Rolling Eyes

We won't mention the issues you have with the WS definition thingy and how perhaps that is relevant here.... You were right Craven! You can do it! Yes you can read (and identify the word ALL, A-L-L) Good!!! Craven!!! Smile

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ADD-ON EDIT:
Noticed I never said you were "wrong" or "dead wrong" over that issue. I just ask you substantiate your claims. BTW, in the absence of evidence, that's what any assertion is, just a claim. So if you think someone asking you for evidence is tantamount to calling you wrong, then you do have a serious problem with your self-concept and.... ah... "conflation".

Providing proof even before being asked for it should always be the "high" standard of debate. That's the kind of "decorum" or rather mode of debate I can respect and seems to be something you pretended to be within your criteria....
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Yes, I can point it out [where Noah said the "entire" forum were WS.] But a better question is whether I will. And relevant to that question is that Noah is of far less interest to me than I think he is to you (e.g. you emulate him, I don't). I don't feel like reading through his posts at the moment and don't much care to maintain a high intellectual standard of debate about Noah so I don't plan to.

Hmmmm......
I guess at some point you felt better.... (but it was not because I made a big point about it)

Now, tell me what's the problem with you mannin'-up?

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The Noahs do not speak for African-Americans. They seem to think they do but do not. Frankly as a black man I am frequently disgusted by the desire of some loudmouths to try to annoint themselves as leaders.

How about mannin' up on the reparations issue?
Now tell who "speaks for African-Americans" on that issue?
The Noah's or the Craven's?

Oh! And I'm definitely am waiting for you to lay out the basis for this "Loudmouth self-appointed, self-annointed leadership" bit. Can you illustrate how I have done so and what your earlier statement meant in that context.... (There's that word again!!)

"you are in no way a representative of blacks and thank goodness for that."

Why don't you tell me how "representative" I am on the reparations issue again Craven? Thank goodness its only some 67% that think like me! Embarrassed

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You've been speaking to me at length, you have also consulted what I think.

You have some type of hearing/reading block that filters out CONTEXT??
I have not consulted your views or advise on reparations.... Black/White/Polka Dot you, Mr. "I have common ground with black people", (hmmm.... ) or rather your thoughts on the issue are irrelevant and you likewise are in NO way a representative of blacks.... Thank Gooooooodness for that!

(Now can you tell what "blacks" you're talking about in your statements. All blacks, some blacks, tall blacks, fats blacks or just blacks that think like you? And what or why are you thankful?)

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I've apologized if I have offended.

Well that's nice but I would think the emoticons stand for something, not to mention my tone.

I think what I said earlier about msg boards and stuff should let you know if I'm serious or not.

But as for further discussions or something about reparations....
You and I don't have the "common ground" upon which we can discuss or I would care to share what I think with you. Your treatment of things here is, in fact, a big factor in that. Trivial or not, your "toy" with you idea is a non-starter.... if you want to be taken seriously.

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I'm not sure what you people are talking about, re: "common ground." Hell, I don't have "common ground" with my own siblings. Trying to argue cultural points from some "common ground" is not only foolish but stupid. We have blacks, hispanic, whites, and asians in our family. The only common ground we have is "family."

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