Affirmative Action

Yes, Tart, what you said ! :wink: :wink: Remember the song from South Pacific: "You have to be carefully taught" - precisely...

Statina and Tartarin: Good comments all.

Sweetcomplication, I suppose that in saying that it would be better to live in a society that is educated, I was trying to appeal to AU's conservative instincts. That fact notwithstanding, I want the educated society for the benefit of all citizens.

If I could make the rules concerning who would be educated, I'd hope that if the following week, by some irony of the gods, I were turned into a single black woman with six children in high school, I would be be happy, in my new state, with the rules I had made in my more waspish incarnation.

This continued nonsense that the minorities [and in New York City I use that term advisedly] are being educationally short changed is just that. Nonsense! They are afforded the same education as everyone else and in fact go to the same schools. Why than is it that others can thrive and in many, too many, instances they do not. This is not a conservative statement but a statement of fact. Is it because they are mentally incapable? Of course not! They have in too many instances been sold the idea that study and good grades is a white thing. To be precise the question asked of those that do is "what are you trying to be like whitey." That is the basic problem that needs to find a cure. Until the will to learn is instilled no amount of wishful thinking and special privileges will help.
Now can someone answer my question what do we owe the flood of Hispanics flowing across our borders and those people of color newly arrived in the US? AA?

Is that enough meat to chew on?

Au -- I don't think it's a matter of color. First, I think we have sub-standard public schools, pretty much across the board. Yes, there are exceptions, but even the best and classiest rank below average European schools (for example). Second, we have society in which resources accumulate shockingly at the top and not much is left at the bottom. That means that in certain areas the schools get even less thus putting some kids in their own third-world country smack-dab in probably the richest country in the world.

You can watch TV and quote from its fictions and you are not wrong that some kids have innate capabilities greater than others -- a disparity which has no color -- but a middle-class WASP or Jewish kid with learning disabilities is much more likely to be shepherded along through a decent education while the same kid from an economic ghetto or rural area is not likely to get anything like that help. Forget about race/color. Take a look at the whole crowd of kids going through public education. Are you able to figure out before, say, fifth grade which kids are likely to graduate and go to a good college? And if so, how can you tell?

If one's parents are literate, and avid readers, one will be exposed to such influences from an early age. This does not necessarily imply a high degree of education. My grandpartents raised me, my grandmother had four years of education, my grandfather eight. Nonetheless, my grandfather taught me to read before age four, and my grandmother was a constant reader, and sufficiently familiar with "good" literature that you could get a cogent discussion out of her on the comparative merits of Dickens and Hardy. This is an obvious advantage.

What is not so obvious is that if one is descended from slaves who were legally denied education, one does not necessarily grow up in such an environment. Many black children to this day have had to find work rather than seek educational advantages. Even with the proliferation of public libraries, those of limited economic means are not necessarily going to have many books, magazines and newspapers in the home. Poverty, for whatever the cause, also often results in teen-aged mothers, and families without fathers--sufficient enough is the evil of getting a living for a houseful of children, without taking the time to teach children to read before they enter school, or indulge in deep discussions of literary meanings. Affirmative Action seeks to remedy the continuingly pernicious effects of centuries of disadvantage. Au's comments about educational and learning opportunities are shallow, to say the least.

hazlitt

Nice to see you again, as always. I like your Rawlsian example above. Perhaps if I have time later, I'll set up the veil of ignorance notion for au and others to look at.

Where sc and some other voices use 'what sort of community do I wish for' as a framework in thinking about social policy, au and others seem to use something like 'why should I give my hard-earned stuff to anyone else?' Part of what Rawls tried to accomplish is a bridge between those two frameworks.

Set, You touched on part of the problem of "unequal education." The reasons include what you identify as one problem of many. Another is discrimination in housing that is pervasive even today. The San Jose Mercury News had a article not long ago that discrimination in housing against black, Hispanics and Asians in Silicon Valley still exists. The ramifications from discrimination in housing has many negative impacts; one of which is "segregation by fiat." I believe this is one of the reasons (not all) why black crimes against blacks are so common in our country. I'm not a social scientist, but it seems obvious to me that living in a ghetto handicaps the children in many ways. I also believe in personal responsibility, but the circumstances from which black people are required to pull themselves out of poverty is a herculean task for any child. c.i.

Hoorah. Back on track. Thanks fellas!

Dys - Your argument here seems to be "let's continue doing the wrong thing, until you can show me that you've figured out what the right thing is". If what we are doing is "the wrong thing", shouldn't we stop doing it? Good intentions don't cancel out negative consequences.

Ah, would that life lined itself up into those neat categories- "the wrong things", and "the right things". AA isn't a perfect solution, but it is better than nothing - which is what its opponents suggest replace it.

No, not "so" at all. Many are offering alternatives, one or more of which might actually be "something better". That you and Dys may not agree that an offered alternative is "something better" is not the same thing as no one offering an alternative.

I and others have proposed an affirmative action program that uses economic need as its sole criterion. That is an alternative that does not use race as a criteria, but would logically help minorities who have suffered a lack of access due to racial disadvantages associated with the legacies of slavery and racism. AGAIN, that you may not approve of this alternative does not make Dys' claim that none have been offered true. (It is not.)

I guess we just have to agree to disagree about what can and cannot be sensibly considered "alternatives".

Hey, Scrat - why'd you run off without answering my question on the "USA and Iraq" thread?

Ah-ten-SHUN! The general just entered the room. c.i.

...sure hope you get your fill of that...introduction quickley,CI. Twice did it for me...

Blatham, I think that nothing would be lost by some discussion of Rawl's "veil of ignorance." I brought it up because Sweetcomplication seemed interested in justice as applied to AA. I think it is a fine way to look at a piece of social policy with an eye to casting judgment. So, have at it.

You are to be commended for initiating this thread.

Hazlitt


I will tell you what we did in the "good old days" We went to night school.
I although I went to and graduated from an academic high school with all the regents credits to go to college chose not to go. Instead after a working for a year went into service. After a year on active went from active duty into the enlisted reserves, called back to serve 21 more months when the Korean war erupted. Was than discharged from service. Should note that by this time I was married with one child. Realizing that inorder to get ahead I needed to go back to school and get my degree I spent the next 6years working 5 to 6 days a week while going to college at night. That is how it was done if you were a late bloomer in the "old days"
There were no free rides.

AA votes
Setana:

Voters in California approved prop. 209 which prohibits race to be used as a factor. in higher Ed.
Voters in Washington State passed the same sort of law.. (Around 1997-98)

Groups are thinking of having the voters in Michigan vote on similiar legislation -- thereby making the SC decision not to apply for Michigan.

You said in a later post on Monday that "AA seeks to remedy the pernicious effects of centuries of disadvantage." I believe this discussion is about the legal aspects of AA -- as ruled on by the SC.
The legal principle is that you cannot collect damages from people not doing the harm to the plaintiffs. I had nothing to do with slavery or race hatred.

The SC realizes this and has NEVER sanctioned race as a factor ON THIS BASIS. The basis used by Justice O'Conner was "diversity" as first mentioned by Powell in the Bakke case -- an argument joined by no other judge!

Of course, anyone can contribute to organizations dedicated to helping young people achieve, etc. It's really unfortunate that many spend oodles of money trying to tell others how to spend their money or to further their ideas of big government forcing us to behave the way they want us to.
Then the money gets spent on govt programs which leaves us broke and unable to help those in need.

Well, Donlasv, you'll find that such discussions are unmanageable as to the specificity of the topic, especially after 300 posts. However, your statement was not so specific--you've now mentioned two specific examples--there are fifty states. Even given the large population of California, you're nowhere near the contention you made in this sentence: "When the citizens have a chance to vote on AA, they vote against the concept over-whelmingly." Although i rcognize the qualifier of "have a chance to vote," nevertheless, that inferentially implies an overwhelming, general climate of opposition to AA. You might make the case by extension, but it is a weak method. As for the voters of Michigan, they can make policy for their state, but they cannot overturn a decision by the Supremes. Were any future measure to "re-introduce" the practice, or were the restriction removed by voters--the text of the decision would still be valid. I mentioned myself that the Court had made the decision based upon one out of many factors, so i don't know why you would want to mention it again--i've not gainsaid it. As for you contention about legal damages, using race as on factor in an admissions policy cannot by the wildest stretch of the imagination be construed as levying damages against you or anyone else; the modern Germans have paid reparations for what was done to Jews and others by the Nazis, so the contention that this principle has no legal basis in not supported. I know of no one here who has made any contention about awarding damages. My statements were within the context of a more general discussion which i did not initiate, but in which i participated. I stand by what i've written.

I am completely mystified by your statement that this was an elitist decision by the Supremes.

AU, you are to be commended for your perseverance in getting a college education.

Here is an example of what goes on in some black neighborhoods. I live in an affluent town with a large black population. They are mostly what we'd think of as working class and middle class African Americans. One of the frustrating things is that despite an almost herculean effort and the passage of many tax increases for the schools in our liberal community, still the African American students are way behind whites and asians in academic achievement. I know a young man who teaches at the high school. He says that even in our community the black kids do not get the encouragement at home. The parents do not think to create an atmosphere where the kids can study and do homework. The TV goes full blast, there is drinking and loud talk, sometimes raucous fighting. So homework never gets done. What I'm saying is that the atmosphere in these homes is not what it was in my home in central Illinois.

For many of these kids the conditions under which they live are totally, totally unconducive to thinking about education, wanting an education, or encouraging an education.

When you and I were in college and working and trying to support a wife and child, we at least came from a culture that applauded our efforts. Our parents knew what we were about and encouraged us, or at least did not stand in our way or discourage us. We lived in a nurturing white culture that respected our efforts. For huge numbers of African Americans this is not true. Also, the African American who might think of working his way through college might find it harder than a white to get work that is compatable with his school schedule. They face many problems that we whites don't.

I think that when someone in that situation wants help, it ought to be there.

Re: AA votes


Yes, to my eternal shame.

Are you familiar with The Tyranny of the Majority by Lani Guinere?

Are you familiar with the studies which evidenced that when people were shown the Bill of Rights (without it being so named), they by vast majority responded that they thought it was some sort of communist manifesto?

These are but a couple of the reasons we have a representative rather than a direct democracy ...