Selina Trieff

Vivien responds to GS's useful historical comment with "yes, I suppose I am judging it having seen a lot of work that followed and am not giving enough credit for the originality in its day. It's easy to forget the context and judge in the here and now."

Two very sane articulations, i.e., GS's historical contribution and Vivien's acknowledgement of her failure to put Dove in historical context (of judging it as if it were painted here and now). NEVERTHELESS--and I hope I will be forgiven this indulgence--I still, at bottom, evaluate, or respond aesthetically, to all painting AS IF it were painted "here and now."
Ultimately (and I would use this word only for art, never for philosophy, or the social and natural sciences) aesthetic creations are absolute, which is to say context-free or "transcendental."

There is no doubt that my work in art history affected my appreciation of art...mostly broadening my appreciation of most types and categories of art, AND, giving me more insight into the place of the work of art in the ambience in which or for which it was created.
It also gave me greater appreciation of those principles and the works embodying those principles upon which masterworks are based.
There are many artists, who if not the greatest, were responsible for producing the greatest, i.e. Honthorst for Rembrandt. These painters must be given their due. (just as some ordinary folk who carry genius genes regressively produce progeny where those same genius genes are dominant, not
regressive.)
But Dove, altho his abstractions may seem too controlled, IS a fine painter; his color is very musical, some of his works are quite sensuous lying like newborns in a womb. His work is very revolutionary; he was a real loner in terms of American painting.
Personally, I am grateful to art history...it gave me a much fuller sense of the wonder of art.

GS, no doubt a familiarity with art history fosters a greater INTELLECTUAL appreciation of the significance (place and context) of particular works. I don't wish to suggest otherwise. I wish I were far more sophisticated in that regard. But I do not think that my understanding of the history of American Abstract Expressionism, such as it is, has contributed very much to my aesthetic responses to some of the works of Motherwell or Diebenkorn. Those responses are grounded in something far more primitive and, admittedly, naive.
Goodnight all.

JLN, I do not like to divvy the human being up into parts: intellectual, primitive, naif, emotional, physical, etc etc. One may have a very sensual experience dealing with the intellectual or scientific.
I know that brilliant brain surgeons have primitive and sexual experiences while doing their work, and while scientifically and intellectually exacting, their work extends into other areas of their psyche to a large degree. This is true in ALL areas.

That's true, up to a point. No doubt the right brain and left brain, as well as the conscious and unconscious "minds", work in concert. But if I ever have to have brain surgery I will stipulate that if my surgeon gets a hard-on he should be immediately taken away from my cerebelum.

<laughing>

I think I react to paintings first on an emotional level - I found the colours and shapes pleasing, then maybe not sustaining enough. At this point in looking I certainly am judging in the here and now, as though the painting was contemporary.

- then the intellect kicks in and I'm considering the place in the history of art, artists concerns and ideals, looking hard at 'how' the image is created - the marks, use of colour and language more analytically.

It isn't always fair to judge without seeing originals and you have probably all seen some originals of his work. Seeing the original you see so much more, lots of subtlety is lost in the small computer reproduction.

My reaction to them is still that they are pleasing images but .....

but as an original in his day he was indeed innovative and imaginative and I can respect that.

I agree that art history is important, to understand work fully the context and time add vital information so some pieces. Others are timeless - or maybe just seem contemporary now. Turners sketchbooks are wonderful and could have been done yesterday and I've seen old masters sketches of buildings and people that are the same. Other work is very much of its era and needs to be seen in context, like some of the wartime/post war German artists - Beckman etc

The pure power and quality of some things is ageless, whatever the 'style' - Rembrandt is one and I love some of the old religious icons, more than a lot of the work of the Renaissance, strong as that is.

I've waffled on enough!

"Waffling" can be good (where that involves trying to take in various perspectives and contradictory facts). I wish I had waffled a bit before making some of my more extreme, almost hyperbolic, pronouncements. But we can talk, as within family, can't we?
I just came back from showing two paintings at a "brown bag" poetry reading and art displaying session at the Emeritus College of my university. Some of the poetry and prose readings were profounding moving. We both cried and laughed. And that is not hyperboly.

Ms. Waffle here, that's one of my personalities, and then there's Ms. Adamanta Herself. Tough when they talk with each other..

Glad your brown bag session was so rewarding, JL.

Thanks!

that's the great thing - unlike the political threads!

A last word, hah, on the brain surgery.
I get my information from a book on the topic written for general public consumption...by an oft published author Lawrence Shainberg. Shainberg followed Dr. James Brockman, the famous neurosurgeon around for one year before writing Brain Surgeon: an Intimate View of the World.
But humor aside, when you actually envision a surgeon doing excellent work with a "hardon", one must conclude that the surgeon is indeed an exceptional man...such focus of all parts, such restraint!!!

Hah! very good, GS. But this just tells me that that exceptional surgeon's work should be seen in an art museum as an example of "performance art".

Performance art...we used to have it...it was called "burlesque".
Many years ago it was outlawed in NYC where I lived. However, my husband was posted to Chicago,where burlesque wasn't proibited, and we went to Minsky's, the great burlesque theatre.
We loved it...for the first month, we went twice or three times a week to Minsky's. Eventually, however, it got to be boring, and we stopped going...but those early weeks of performance art were great!!!

GS, the last time I went to a burlesque show was when a buddy yelled "Well, damn it, DO something!" because, according to him, the stripper spent too much time on the stage robed. I was too sober to not be embarrassed.
It DOES seem that performance art and burlesque have much in common, as does department store window decoration and installation art.

I do remember that in NYC in the late 60's several of the abstract expressionist artists had jobs on 5th avenue decorating the famous department store windows.

Now there is a job I could possibly do....

looking around my town for department store windows...

only setting I ever did was the backdrop and some props for one of my exhub's plays. I didn't go on to become David Hockney, alas, but I could imagine it being fun, although probably more high pressured that we would guess. Though, who really cares... there is a level of go for it, it's just a window..

I say this as I look at a framed photo I took, still on the wall near my computer, not a work of art, just a snap of four, but as it happened, the women we subleased our landarch space from were clothing designers, and they had windows at Saks and BTellers that year, and I went and photo'd them. Indeed the outfits now look horrible but I like the photos for the layers of Wilshire Blvd. reflections in the waning sun.

From my view, window displays have the displays, and the street audience and the traffic and the changing light. Quite an interesting locale, actually, for doing art..

Definitely full of interesting possibilites

I did a series of photos of reflections in windows for a photography project during my degree, they can be amazing can't they? and the interaction and confusion between reflection and reality can be great as you describe.

Yes.. the snapshot I actually sized up and framed has window reflections on the right side of the photo and on the left, the backdrop has the shadow of the manequin, and the woman in a black outfit manequin shadow turns out to resemble a graceful horse...

wow! I'd love to see it.